Sun glare simulation

[Leifr]

Can someone explain to me why the disc of the sun itself is some thirty degrees off the horizon line but we still suffer from the nuclear-explosion level of bloom on the horizon line itself? The sun is pretty whack in Korea.

[YoYo]

12 minutes ago, Leifr said:

Can someone explain to me why the disc of the sun itself is some thirty degrees off the horizon line but we still suffer from the nuclear-explosion level of bloom on the horizon line itself? The sun is pretty whack in Korea.

Well, here's another correction of what it should look like and how to solve this bug visually.

The sun is the right size and proportions from a pilot's perspective, according to Chat GPT. I completely agree with this image:

 

[YoYo]

Yesterday I flew a morning mission, and the glare from such a large shield is too great (what we know from more than 1 month). It's only visible from the corner of my eye in reality, and there were times when the image was completely white in VR (the whole picture). Here, too, a problem arises in VR: part of the sun is obscured by the canopy's frame, while the other part isn't. However, the image in one eye is normal, while in the other, where the excessive glare/bloom and shield are visible, the entire VR image in the other eye is white. This isn't how it looks in real life, and I consider it a visual bug. Neither DCS, MSFS, nor even IL-2 GB (although the sun is quite large here, too) have this effect. I think this is because the sun is positioned at the incorrect distance from the earth, meaning the shield should be actually about the size of a fingernail, at arm's length, and the glare would be reduced. A good comparison of the entire Chat GPT on the previous page - this is not the Sun but a reflector directed towards you and placed quite close.

Or maybe Korea is on Tatooine? 

Edited August 8 by YoYo

[MajorMagee]

This may be so fundamentally part of how they chose to implement PBR that their hands are now tied in being able to tone it down through parameter changes. I say that because if we're still getting large areas of blown out skies after setting haze to none then the only way to get less scattering in the atmosphere would be to have negative haze (a partial vacuum).

Summer at 1900 with a 100 deg FOV. Both of these are positioned so the fuselage is partially eclipsing the sun disk so you can tell where it is within the glare.

Max Haze and Fog

No Haze and Fog

Some have mentioned that it may be that they're calculating the atmospheric scattering as if it's starting from the sun's image in the game (a large disk shaped light source that is close by). Perhaps using a virtual disk light source that is smaller and farther away for the calculations could help?

[Husar]

By coincidence, I found out that the sun is above the glare 😄 I was flying at 30,000 ft. 

Edited August 10 by Husar

[Zakson85]

I’ve been following this thread, and I really hope the developers don't mess with the effect they’ve implemented. Finally, in a competitive online game, you can successfully employ tactics involving attacking with or against the sun—and it actually impacts how the attack plays out. In any other simulator I've played so far, this aspect was basically irrelevant... but this one is a first :D.

P.S. Don't you think asking an AI chatbot to generate "realistic" sun imagery is a bit shaky ground? Its knowledge is based on processed, 8-bit dynamic compressed photos of the sun that random people upload to the internet in droves. It completely overlooks the dynamics of the real-world visuals we see every day...

[MajorMagee]

I'm not sure it works the way you hoped for.

Coming out of the gigantic "blinding" sun bloom on my 5 o'clock, and you can still see them plain as day because they are displayed as black on white.

[Zakson85]

Exactly as you showed. The aircraft is invisible within the flare, but clearly visible outside of it.

[MajorMagee]

By that standard the sun glare could be sized appropriately, as it is in real life, and still do what you want.

As you demonstrated, it would be seen as few grey pixels on a white background for a few moments as he crosses the sun disk.

Edited August 11 by MajorMagee

[Zakson85]

In my opinion, the sun in a combat flight simulator should be blinding. To counter this, sun visors are used in helmets, and I think that is the approach developers should take: you lower the sun visor so the sun doesn't blind you, but you lose the ability to see details in dark areas, such as the cockpit and instruments.

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

I’ve been following this thread, and I really hope the developers don't mess with the effect they’ve implemented. Finally, in a competitive online game, you can successfully employ tactics involving attacking with or against the sun—and it actually impacts how the attack plays out. In any other simulator I've played so far, this aspect was basically irrelevant... but this one is a first :D.

P.S. Don't you think asking an AI chatbot to generate "realistic" sun imagery is a bit shaky ground? Its knowledge is based on processed, 8-bit dynamic compressed photos of the sun that random people upload to the internet in droves. It completely overlooks the dynamics of the real-world visuals we see every day...

I completely disagree. Don't confuse glare with the sun's size and excessive halo. The screenshots above speak volumes, and there's not much more to add. A smaller sun disc doesn't rule out the glare effect or looking directly at the sun. Besides... in your screenshot, you gave an example with... icons... that says a lot when you're flying, and you've contradicted yourself a bit, don't you think? Icons always appear the same against the sun. You don't get the surprise effect. I'm a bit confused by this reasoning. Currently, the center of the shield is obscured by the plane, but it is visible from the side (black dot on a light background), so it's OK.

20 minutes ago, Zakson85 said:

In my opinion, the sun in a combat flight simulator should be blinding. To counter this, sun visors are used in helmets, and I think that is the approach developers should take: you lower the sun visor so the sun doesn't blind you, but you lose the ability to see details in dark areas, such as the cockpit and instruments.

Of course, one doesn't exclude the other. A small solar disk, not the size of a nearby nuclear explosion, doesn't preclude the blinding effect. The difference is only in this respect. Even in real life, the Sun doesn't obscure your vision 100%. You see a clear light at the center of the sun, and that's it. Usually, you can block the entire solar flare with your hand; I imagine you've done this more than once. If you take the scale in VR, even the pilot's entire body wouldn't cover this bloom in IL-2 Korea.

Generally, remember that we're talking about sunrise and sunset in IL-2 Korea; it's not only unrealistic, it's just plain wrong. During the day, when the sun is quite high, it looks quite okay.

[Zakson85]

Amazing. I actually used the icons to draw your attention to the plane that’s barely visible. Otherwise, you probably would have only noticed the larger one. I didn't expect anyone to interpret it that way, though. It’s nice to still be surprised by things. Anyway, I won't interrupt your debate about "realism" any longer-go ahead and fight it out with the creators. Good luck with that.

[Stonehouse]

No idea whether the camera had filters etc in play so the naked eye may see things differently but an interesting comparison as both are from locations in Korea. There are differences to the two sunrises presumably due to conditions at the time.

Only my opinion but it seemed to me that the glow was more above or with the sun than underneath as it is in game. First seems to me to be closer to the game effect. Clouds or haze on the horizon would likely make things quite different.

[302_Miro]

For me Korea got most realistic sun simulation, try to watch at sun with your eyes in real world and see what happens... In Il2 Korea You cannot see contact in the sun, just like in real world. Photos from camera are not realistic if we try to simulate human eye, if you try to watch at sun like in pics above with Your eyes, you go blind.

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

No idea whether the camera had filters ....

 

And exactly, this image is very good, the camera is directly in front of the sun, you can see the difference perfectly and the problem in IL-2 Korea. It's not about the blinding effect, but the size of the sun's disc.

Here's another example (the music is terrible, I warn you). The film was shot on camera zoom (no nuke explosion like we have in IL-2 Korea):

Btw. The first video is distorted, even visible in the water. The camera is off-center, and the fisheye effect creates distortion. The camera probably also has HDR enabled. 

In photography, you can manipulate the optics themselves quite a bit, and I'd be careful with this comparison (it is better to base on your own experiences).. Several factors can contribute to this: Sensor overexposure – the sun is extremely brighter than the sky. When the camera tries to show both the sky and the landscape simultaneously, part of the image around the sun is completely overexposed. Sensor blooming – very strong light can spill onto neighboring pixels. In older cameras and with extremely bright light sources, the effect can be very pronounced. Lens optical aberrations – the lenses are not perfect. With the sun, you can experience: a large glow, flares, ghosting, blur, and a "halo" around the sun. Film compression can also make a very bright area look like a huge, blurred spot instead of a small disc.

Edited August 11 by YoYo

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, 302_Miro said:

For me Korea got most realistic sun simulation, try to watch at sun with your eyes in real world and see what happens... In Il2 Korea You cannot see contact in the sun, just like in real world. Photos from camera are not realistic if we try to simulate human eye, if you try to watch at sun like in pics above with Your eyes, you go blind.

This is perhaps only good for 2D users. In VR, you feel like the Sun is halfway closer to Earth than it actually is. It's so large that if it were that close, life on Earth would likely be impossible 😉. The blinding effect is certainly possible and no one here is saying to remove it, but we are talking here primarily about the size of the solar disk (or the whole glare).

Edited August 11 by YoYo

[MajorMagee]

From my photography collection this is as close as I can get to the conditions we're discussing.

The circular region around the sun disk, where the camera sensor highlights are blown out, is 8x the size of the sun disk.

In the game, when the sun is in the lower part of the sky, the blown out area is 18x the disk size (measured from various game images posted above). At higher angles above the horizon the sun disk itself can be seen, and it is much larger than life leading to the comments about it being apparently closer to the earth than it should be.

[MajorMagee]

Sadly, they are patting themselves on the back in Dev Blog #84 for the perfection of their result. It's not looking like they even think this an issue to improve. I guess I just need to acknowledge that MacArthur is finally vindicated and at least twice a day nukes have become part of the Korean War history.

Quote

LIGHTING, ATMOSPHERE, AND VISUAL EFFECTS

 

• Improved High Dynamic Range (HDR) effect.
• Improved Bloom effect.
• A new, highly detailed Sun Glare effect.
• Gun Camera filming effect.
• Ray-traced volumetric lighting for the atmosphere and haze provides more natural light distribution and a stronger sense of depth.
• Mountains and hills cast shadows on atmospheric haze, the terrain, and objects located behind them.
• Physically correct lighting of objects and terrain that accounts for the shape of the ground surface and flight altitude.
• Rain is rendered in the near, middle, and far distance.
• Night lighting for settlements, roads, and airfields.
• High-intensity light sources from illumination bombs.
• A new system for lighting, animating, and editing visual-effect particles.

 

Edited August 13 by MajorMagee

[YoYo]

4 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

Sadly, they are patting themselves on the back in Dev Blog #84 for the perfection of their result. It's not looking like they even think this an issue to improve. I guess I just need to acknowledge that MacArthur is finally vindicated and at least twice a day nukes have become part of the Korean War history.

Yes, I read that too, and I have no idea how to interpret it. A moment later, they added that the IL-2 Korea has fantastic night lighting, and then that they're listening to users.

Hmmm. 🙇‍♂️

A bug tracker for the IL-2 Korea would be useful. Because it's unclear what's being written or will be corrected, but whether the developers even realize it. It says it's fine, and even in VR, we have a simple bug where the night lighting renders more clearly on one eye, and almost completely on the other (reported from very early EA).

It's also possible that this was also included here intentionally, somewhat in opposition to the Steam review, and it's more of a marketing ploy.

The lighting is certainly not bad (generally speaking), although it's not a huge leap forward compared to the IL-2 GB (for me, the night lighting in particular is a step backward). But DCS or MSFS is much, much better here, where I feel like it's a real night.

The nuke explosion of a great sun like nothing. 

Edited August 13 by YoYo

[catch]

I think they's done very well all things considered.

[YoYo]

10 hours ago, Catch said:

I think they's done very well all things considered.

That's right, everything's fine, and it's not a giant column of flames like the current fires in Spain, but a romantic sun that would burn you. Have you ever watched the sunset with a girlfriend or from a plane? 

(btw. not my screenshot). 

MSFS (yesterday's eclipse):

DCS. The exaggerated sun effects (both the size of the shield and the halo) in IL-2 Korea in the morning or in the evening are very far cry from that of DCS even. This is completely unrealistic.

We are talking about the size of the sun's disc and its halo, let the blinding effect remain for sure.

Edited August 13 by YoYo

[MajorMagee]

Having even the eclipse modeled in MSFS is amazing when you think about it.

[catch]

6 hours ago, YoYo said:

That's right, everything's fine, and it's not a giant column of flames like the current fires in Spain

Over the two days (and one night) it took me to digest all the details in Dev Blog #84 there was no mention of a problem with sun glare. In fact, the devs were kind enough to offer this statement:

• A new, highly detailed Sun Glare effect.

No mention of any issues. Also, in the Blog #84 video at about 3.00 there is a beautiful representation of sun glare. I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, it simulates the beauty of nature in all its glory quite well.

In conclusion, the devs don't seem to have a problem with it. I would check your equipment. I mean VR enthusiasts can be a little one-eyed about things.

                                                                                                               ~

PS: Of more importance, and recognised by the devs, are the issues with AI. They are actively engaged in improvements as per below:

• Further improvements to AI-controlled aircraft behavior algorithms.

Of course, AI issues are irrelevant to exclusive onliners, but it does show the devs commitment to improving gameplay for SP.

[MajorMagee]

Well if those few seconds from the video are representative of what we're supposed to be experiencing then it would be great if Luke would stop by and let us know how the developers can do it, but we can't seem to realize the same results.

I've tried every parameter I can think of and it's always more blown out than what they show us.

Looking at their example in detail, I now see that the cloud is obscuring the sun disk, and that's why they don't get the giant white blob we've been reporting. I suspect they know better than to show the world the flaws in their PBR approach.

Even with their more translucent and atmospherically beautiful representation in the promo video, it's still fairly oversized for a wide angle view like this when compared to real life.

 

[Stonehouse]

At my end there seems to be a difference due to lighting HDR being enabled/disabled in game. With it on the glow from the sun disk seems like a pretty solid shape with it off it seems more translucent although it is still quite a large sun disk. I used task editor to get the same atmospheric conditions. To me the first with Lighting HDR off appears closest to reality even though I think the sun disk (ie the glow in the sky around the sun) is still overstated to some degree - I think it extends to the sides too far but it definitely looks better with lighting HDR disabled.

So possibly the lighting HDR interaction with the sun disk part of the issue.

Lighting HDR off

Lighting HDR enabled

Edited August 14 by Stonehouse