The AI thread

[ACE-OF-ACES]

36 minutes ago, Valis said:

It goes black, but you won't lose consciousness.

Agreed 100%

My bad!

I was equating G-LOC with Blacking Out!

But that is not correct!

By definition 

G-LOC is when you loose consciousness, not just blacking out

I stand corrected!

Edited Saturday at 06:03 PM by ACE-OF-ACES

[Xtremist]

5 hours ago, ACE-OF-ACES said:

Agreed 100%

My bad!

I was equating G-LOC with Blacking Out!

But that is not correct!

By definition 

G-LOC is when you loose consciousness, not just blacking out

I stand corrected!

Also, G-loc in the game causes disorientation after regaining consciousness, wobbling head etc.. with the simplified physiology after the blackout clears out, the player recovers immediately. Perhaps you should figure out the meaning of these terms Before arguing about them.

The data and analysis part (without accessing in-game telemetry of the planes) is that you try to lag pursuit the ai with the same type of aircraft with the exact same configuration, and with the same speed you will experience the effects of g-loc, while the ai plane won't. It is this simple, and very well explained with the information provided in the mentioned discord entry.

With simplified player physiology If you turn on aircraft labels, (which show through blackout) you can turn after the AI indefinitely. Without labels sometimes the blackout is on edge of seeing enough to maintain the pursuit. I am not sure if the ai is handicapped in aiming to the same extent to the player from blackout, because the aiming of the ai is too inconsistent to do this test reliably with the Ai doing the pursuit.

 

Edited Saturday at 11:56 PM by Xtremist

[YoYo]

Following the 1.004 update, I have to say that AI landings look much more interesting. At least they don't fly like maniacs or crash into each other; plus, they report their approach and altitude. It’s a nice touch, definitely a change for the better. 👍Thank You.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

20 hours ago, Xtremist said:

Perhaps you should figure out the meaning of these terms Before arguing about them.

No need

In that I had a good idea of what the real world aspect of what a black out intails prior to arguing about them..

It was translating them to the game world aspect that got me!

The issue I had was not being an arcade type of player!

That is to say I typically have all the settings set to full real.. 

As in I did not have externals turned on..

After all the push back I took a 2nd look and turned on some of the arcade settings others were using and it was at that point that I realized that when you black out, you can still maneuver the plane. I could not tell that from within the cockpit due to the black out, but switching to externals allowed me to see that the 'real' pilot can still maneuver the plane and adjust the throttle.. Something the real pilot cannot do when he goes unconscious.

So now with the help from those use to using arcade settings I am up to speed on the difference between real world definitions and game definitions

Thanks for you help on that by the way! S!

So now I am wondering more about this setting..

We know that when it is enabled a real player will black out! 

Granted the real player can still maneuver and adjust settings..

But since you cannot see anything, you really cannot fight (loose sight loose fight)

So the question is..

Can the AI pilot still 'see'?

I seem to recall IL2 KOREA during development talking about how the AI will NOT be able to see through clouds like in some other games..

I wonder if that 'blindness' is applied to black outs?

Edited yesterday at 08:05 PM by ACE-OF-ACES

[Xtremist]

 

"I was equating G-LOC with Blacking Out!"

You are still doing that.

"I realized that when you black out, you can still maneuver the plane. "

"Something the real pilot cannot do when he goes unconscious."

Now you are comparing ingame blackout with IRL losing consciousness.

Blackout and G-LOC are distinctly different things, and the blackout is not equal to being incapacitated as in G-LOC. So you are still mixed up, there are no "game" and "real world" definitions, in both cases blackout is the loss of vision without incapacitation.

If you choose non-arcade physiology, the player can still  maneuver when blacking out until reaching G-LOC, as IRL.

The simplified physiology (arcade) mode allows blackout (with questionable effects on AI) and no G-LOC. Question is, if this is "arcade" mode, why is that the default and only available physiology for the AI, even when the player didn't choose it?

Edited 15 hours ago by Xtremist

[Husar]

1 hour ago, Xtremist said:

The simplified physiology (arcade) mode allows blackout (with questionable effects on AI) and no G-LOC. Question is, if this is "arcade" mode, why is that the default and only available physiology for the AI, even when the player didn't choose it?

The simplified player G model, which you call arcade, is almost identical to the only one available in DCS, widely considered the most realistic combat flight simulator.

IMHO, before the devs introduced the new, more realistic player G model in GB, the game was much more fun. Turning fights with Yaks and Spitfires were great. Now, with jet speeds, you can deplete your stamina to half in a very short time, and it almost never fully recovers. And you don't even need to experience a G-LOC to do that.

I think the game would be much better if this long-lasting stamina penalty only applied when you actually experience a G-LOC. That way, players who don't push their aircraft and pilots to the absolute limit wouldn't be penalized so heavily. IMHO, it would make air combat much more enjoyable for attacking and defending.

[Xtremist]

44 minutes ago, Husar said:

The simplified player G model, which you call arcade, is almost identical to the only one available in DCS, widely considered the most realistic combat flight simulator.

IMHO, before the devs introduced the new, more realistic player G model in GB, the game was much more fun. Turning fights with Yaks and Spitfires were great. Now, with jet speeds, you can deplete your stamina to half in a very short time, and it almost never fully recovers. And you don't even need to experience a G-LOC to do that.

I think the game would be much better if this long-lasting stamina penalty only applied when you actually experience a G-LOC. That way, players who don't push their aircraft and pilots to the absolute limit wouldn't be penalized so heavily. IMHO, it would make air combat much more enjoyable for attacking and defending.

I'm not calling it arcade myself, i used this term because the forum member whom i quoted called it such.

I don't have problem with the difficulty of either system, i have only one problem, the unequality stemming from the fact that AI physiology doesn't follow player physiology settings.

The G-LOC and G-fatigue wouldn't be such penalty if the enemy had the same effect on him from it.

Edited 13 hours ago by Xtremist

[AndreiTomescu]

16 minutes ago, Xtremist said:

the unequality stemming from the fact that AI physiology doesn't follow player physiology settings.

soooo nicely put. 

i would add that some of us don't wanna downgrade to the AI level, we would much prefer for the AI to have the player's level of realism.

if it's not possible, then.....we should use the simplified psysiology ?

maybe, but then i also get the sense a part of the realism and immersion that i seek in game it's taken away.

[Xtremist]

38 minutes ago, AndreiTomescu said:

soooo nicely put. 

i would add that some of us don't wanna downgrade to the AI level, we would much prefer for the AI to have the player's level of realism.

if it's not possible, then.....we should use the simplified psysiology ?

maybe, but then i also get the sense a part of the realism and immersion that i seek in game it's taken away.

I would also like to have the Ai suffer the g-loc, it requires a whole different approach to dogfight tactics. (Most likely this is the exact reason for not applying it to ai)

Edited 12 hours ago by Xtremist

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Husar said:

The simplified player G model, which you call arcade, is almost identical to the only one available in DCS, widely considered the most realistic combat flight simulator.

Only in some ways, primarily the cockpit simulation and the flight model. But there are also ways in which DCS is rather poor, sometimes even having a worse implementation than War Thunder. It's not very useful to treat another sim as if it is perfect, when no sim is, and each sim will have strengths and weaknesses.

1 hour ago, Xtremist said:

I would also like to have the Ai suffer the g-loc, it requires a whole different approach to dogfight tactics. (Most likely this is the exact reason for not applying it to ai)

It would certainly be another reason for AI planes to fly into the ground (which is fine if it happens rarely and only when forced into an error during combat).

1 hour ago, AndreiTomescu said:

if it's not possible, then.....we should use the simplified psysiology ?

That doesn't necessarily create a level playing field unless the AI's ability to perceive the player is hampered by blackout the same as the player is hampered, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[Panzerlang]

If I put my plane into AI mode, boy, does he like to black himself out. Longest blackout so far was over two minutes. Sometimes he crashes, sometimes not.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

8 hours ago, Xtremist said:

You are still doing that.

Apparently I have confused you with my use of the term(s) blacking, black, blacked out..

And I will admit I was a little loose with the terms myself!

But allow me to explain better so you can understand my point of view..

For me the transition of BLACKING OUT to BLACKED OUT goes like this..

• step 1) Initial onset, your visions starts to 'gray'..
• step 2) Followed by your peripheral vision starts to narrow to a tunnel like vision..
• step 3) Followed by loss of vision..
• step 4) Followed by loss of conciousness..

Where:

• step 1) GRAYING OUT
• step 2) GRAYING to BLACKING OUT
• step 3) BLACK OUT
• step 4) BLACKED OUT aka G-LOC

Hope that helps!

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks Ace for clarification on your part.   As usual, as a group we get tripped up on semantics, thus missing the salient point, the AI are cheating on us. all of us.

When we engage them they don't accumulate G force adding up to total blackout, so they can turn harder, for longer.  Meanwhile the human pilot flying on "realistic" settings has to tippy toe up toward the oddly implemented G limit, which means we are at a disadvantage out of the gate. 

Once again the mantra of "Harder = more real" is wrong again.  The G load implementation for pilots needs a rework, and soon.