Dev Blog #88: F9F Panther

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, gecko said:

What I am confused by is the secrecy. It was well known that Soviet pilots were in regular combat over MiG Alley. The combats of the F-86s against them were not covered in secrecy. Everyone just agreed to pretend all the MiGs were Chinese or North Korean. What made this different?

I think a big part of it is the plausible deniability angle. Easy enough for the USSR to deny its pilots being shot down when the planes are flown with North Korean markings - "Our planes? No, they are North Korean, see?" In Royce Williams's case, AFAIK, they were painted with Soviet insignia, so there was no denying who was behind the controls. 

[FuriousMeow]

This YT link I posted earlier has a lot of the info in it, like the NSA was involved telling them to not engage - but was a little too late at that point - and these MiGs were indeed in USSR markings and not NK.... plus its got some graphical dogfighting, I expect the Il2 Korea visuals will be better in many regards though:

 

[AndreiTomescu]

the hole story is movie material. it's awesome.

A few things to be noted:

- Migs had soviet markings. I didn't know that. the Navy attacking a target so close to Soviet Union border might justify that.

- They were not Soviet pilots concealed in N Korean painted Migs, they were Soviet airframes on the open.

- Navy main task was defending the ships, right? But sending 4 Panthers vs 7 Migs.... those guys were brave. Although they believed that were facing inexperienced N Korean pilots.

- from a flight of 4 vs 7, since the commander suddenly experienced engine trouble, not only him turned away, but also his wingman! Leaving a gruesome 2 vs 7 potential encounter. 

- headquarters ordered to "not engage". and if the Migs would have attacked the carrier? Still stand down? also troublesome.

- the performance of the soviet pilots was quite surprising. Or maybe Williams was exceptionally skilled and incredibly lucky. Or maybe all three....

- despite the 23mm and 37 mm shells being so powerful, 236 holes struck that Panther plane and it still landed. Didn't brake up. Wow. Sturdy plane.

“God was in control. I was calm.”

E. Royce Williams — U.S. Navy fighter pilot (CalMatters, 2026)

 

This statement of Williams says something about how a modest and exceptional pilot he was. Although that i personally believe that given the hole story, his statement is true.

[Trooper117]

It's worth reading Chapter 1 of Thomas McKelvey Cleavers book, ''Holding The Line'' as it covers with more detail that encounter, with Williams giving first hand account... the Panther was hit with both 23mm and 37mm and he couldn't believe he had made it back to the carrier... the book covers the Naval air campaign in Korea.

[Justicier10-7]

4 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

despite the 23mm and 37 mm shells being so powerful, 236 holes struck that Panther plane and it still landed. Didn't brake up. Wow. Sturdy plane.

Ever since I first researched this a year or so ago it made my jaw drop... I still wonder how many actual shell impacts that translates into. The only accounts I could find didn't specify what holes were primary impacts from cannon shells, and which holes were shrapnel thrown by those primary impacts (I suppose it would be difficult to tell for sure). Regardless, the reports were consistent in stating that it withstood a 37mm impact center mass that destroyed hydraulics. Phenomenal machine.

[AndreiTomescu]

4 hours ago, Justicier10-7 said:

Phenomenal machine.

Yes, indeed, sir!

Wonder if we might be able to simulate that in the future, with the incoming carrier ops.

One can only imagine there will be a thread called "isn't the F9F too strong?" 😂😂😂

Luckily, Mr Williams is still alive. We can ask his opinion. 😉

[Gunfreak]

9 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

It's worth reading Chapter 1 of Thomas McKelvey Cleavers book, ''Holding The Line'' as it covers with more detail that encounter, with Williams giving first hand account... the Panther was hit with both 23mm and 37mm and he couldn't believe he had made it back to the carrier... the book covers the Naval air campaign in Korea.

An excellent book, so is his Mig Alley.

No pro US bias, using sources from all combatans. 

[Gavrick]

My own little 1/72 Panther. Built some years ago... And now she lives in the office)

[Rocho]

2 hours ago, Gavrick said:

My own little 1/72 Panther. Built some years ago... And now she lives in the office)

To me, she is certainly a beauty.