Thoughts on a potential future Commonwealth DLC

[Nearlymen]

OK, some thoughts on the Deck Op's DLC news and also the teaser that a Commonwealth Op's DLC could be released in the future. I have to say I am impressed with what was shown and also for the Helo news (more on that and what it means for Commonwealth Ops later). As a Brit though I am excited and a little disappointed at the same time with the Sea Fury release though. On it's own it seems how shall I say it...lonely ! To my knowledge there were no cross decking op's between RN and USN carriers in Korea, so using the Essex (wonderful looking model I would add) will just feel wrong, and the lack of the Fairy Firefly IV with which the Sea Fury Operated with in concert again leaves me with a feeling of lacking. It is what it is and I accept that but I can't help but feel the Meteor F.8 would have been a better choice to release at this stage rather than the Sea Fury. With the Meteor and the already in Game P-51, then you could have easily represented the Australians RAAF land based contribution with 77 Sqdn, and indeed the South African SAAF contribution with both the P-51 and Sabre in 2 Sqdn 'Cheetahs'. Had it been released in that fashion the British and Australian Naval contribution would have come out as one cohesive future DLC release, but like I said earlier it is what it is. Regarding though the aircraft for the USN and the Essex Carrier I think what is shown is a great selection and will really add a great deal op's wise to the game.

Now some thoughts on the Future possible Commonwealth DLC. OK as I mentioned we are already at a point where it would be possible to bring in the SAAF For Land Op's with little effort, and the RAAF Land Op's using P-51 if desired (Ok the commonwealth P-51 use is slightly out of the sims current time frame but it could brought if desired). If we had the RAAF Meteor F.8 then that would open up the Commonwealth land op's nicely.
Regarding the Commonwealth Naval Op's, it kind of splits into 3 phases regarding airframe use (Initial deployment/transitional/later deployments), but with reference to the Colossus class carrier that was used by both the British and Australians. I'll list the deployments below which shows the sequence of changes and the introduction of the Westland Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) albeit at first with USN pilots before the RN took over flying duties.

HMS Triumph 26/06/50 - 29/09/50
800 Sqdn Supermarine Seafire Mk.47
827 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.1
SAR Supermaine Sea Otter

HMS Theseus 29/09/50-23/04/51
807 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
810 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Supermarine Sea Otter

HMS Glory 23/04/51- 30/09/51
804 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
813 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by USN Pilots

HMAS Sydney 30/09/51- 27/01/52
805 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
808 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
817 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by USN Pilots

HMS Glory 27/01/52- 05/05/52
804 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
812 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by RN Pilots

HMS Ocean 05/05/52- 08/11/52
802 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
825 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by RN Pilots

HMS Glory 08/11/52- 19/03/83
801 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
821 Sqdn Fairey Firefly Mk.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by RN Pilots

HMS Ocean 09/05/53- 31/11/53
807 Sqdn Hawker Sea Fury FB11
810 Sqdn Fairey Firefly M.V
SAR Dragonfly (Sikorsky S-51) manned by RN Pilots

As can be seen the Commonwealth was there at the beginning and at the end of the whole conflict regarding the Naval Air war.

Regarding land based Army deployments something that would be appreciated would be the unique British armour in the the form of Centurion Mk.3, Churchill Mk.VII and Cromwell Mk.VII.

So what would this little santa's wishlist mean regarding new models in the sim if we went for everything ?

Supermarine Seafire Mk.47, Fairey Firefly Mk.1, Fairey Firefly Mk.V, Gloster Meteor F.8, Supermarine Sea Otter (AI ?), Colossus Class Carrier, Centurion Mk.3, Churchill Mk.VII and Cromwell Mk.VII. (5 Airframes, a carrier and 3 tanks)

Combine that with what is already available (or next DLC release) and you can bring in the Commonwealth Forces quite comprehensively.

It was mentioned in the Dev Vlog 'If there was a demand' for a Commonwealth DLC in the future so this is where that starts !

(Footnote ! I originally thought the Firefly M.IV was deployed to Korea but a couple of references say it was Mk.V so I changed that. My Apologies)

Edited September 2 by Nearlymen
Spelling Correction ! Firefly Mk.IV changed to Mk.V

[DFLion]

Nearlymen,

Thanks for your summary of Commonwealth aircraft operating in the Korean war. An old friend of mine was on one of the British carriers flying Sea Fury's, he was able to describe some of his missions before sadly passing away. The Sea Fury is a descendant of the Tempest which is well portrayed in Great Battles 

The three aircraft I would like to see flying in the sim are 1. The Fairey Firefly Mk.IV. 2. The Supermarine Seafire Mk. 47 and definitely  3. The RAAF Gloster Meteor F.8 which the Russian Mig pilots fully respected (reading the official history). The Meteor was no match against the Mig, though many of them escaped to fly another day because of their two engines. 

DFLion

[Nearlymen]

Just to add something rather unusual when put into the context of early jets operating of Carriers in Korea. The Sea Otter of HMS Theseus being winched aboard and by the looks of it probably in Kure, Japan. Note the furies with the stripes behind .

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thank you @Nearlymen for the concise breakdown of RN and RAN forces in the Korean War.  I agree that Commonwealth forces should have their own carrier, but for now the Essex class will make do.  It may not "feel" right, but it's still carrier ops.  I do hope all the Royal Navy, RAAF and SAAF units and aircraft/skins will be come available, because I enjoy being able to "fly" everything, no matter what insignia is painted on it.  And lets face it the Sea Fury and Firefly are really cool airframes.  I have seen the Canadian Firefly at an airshow here in the States, and it's an imposing thing and I find it quite good looking.

As to tanks, I say bring them!  The Centurion was overall the best tank on the whole Korean peninsula at that time.  The Pershing was good, but it's underpowered engine proved insufficient in the mountainous terrain of Korea, and the old reliable Sherman, and the Centurion were better able to deal with conditions there.

Edited September 2 by BlitzPig_EL

[Nearlymen]

A Rocket Armed Firefly Mk.1 takes off from HMS Triumph bound for Korea. We can but hope oneday !

[AndreiTomescu]

It's all about flavour. About only 7% of total UN flights in Korea were flown by non-US aircrafts. Still, this number means about 50k sorties. that's a lot. And that is also, imho, an aspect (non US sorties) that would appeal to a very large number of players.

Also, the financial aspect: the Commonwealth community is LARGE. This kind of DLC would appeal to them all, not just strictly Brits, and that means quite A LOT of virtual pilots. Not to mention plenty of others from the other countries.

Still, this is a such a looong way out.....

The previous planned releases, like bombers, O&L finalization, carrier ops DLC, etc, are looong due. The new timeline announcement has shifted dearly the presumed releases. And what's currently released still needs a lot of optimizing. So while a future Commonwealth DLC would be extraordinary, i'm afraid it's birth is still on the other side of the moon. But one can only dream.

[Dash,Polder]

Canadians can take the Banshee to war, even though the Canadian Banshee's missed the war because of delayed acquisition they can still do the what if, and it won't upset a thing since that plane was there and a major participant, just have to swap paint and issue deployment orders.

[Justicier10-7]

4 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

It's all about flavour. About only 7% of total UN flights in Korea were flown by non-US aircrafts. Still, this number means about 50k sorties. that's a lot. And that is also, imho, an aspect (non US sorties) that would appeal to a very large number of players.

Also, the financial aspect: the Commonwealth community is LARGE. This kind of DLC would appeal to them all, not just strictly Brits, and that means quite A LOT of virtual pilots. Not to mention plenty of others from the other countries.

This has been my observation as well. I have several friends who were not really interested in Korea's initial release as none of the aircraft really appealed to them. When I asked what they wanted to see, they always replied "Seafire, Seafury, Meteor," and said they'd wait before buying Korea until the RN and/or RAAF was in the game.

Commonwealth players who are only interested in flying commonwealth aircraft puzzle me a bit, but it is what it is. Hopefully the Carrier Expansion will bring some in for the Sea Fury if nothing else... that plane is amazing 😃

Edited September 2 by Justicier10-7
Made a whoopsie, meant to say RN not RAF

[AndreiTomescu]

49 minutes ago, Justicier10-7 said:

until the RAF and/or RAAF was in the game

To serve justice 🙂 😉 to the forgotten ones, we might see a RAAF Mustang campaign, since it's in the making of @AEthelraedUnraed. Maybe that would be pleasing. Especially because the Mustang AI is fine. Or these guys are MP only ?

[Justicier10-7]

3 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

To serve justice 🙂 😉 to the forgotten ones, we might see a RAAF Mustang campaign, since it's in the making of @AEthelraedUnraed. Maybe that would be pleasing. Especially because the Mustang AI is fine. Or these guys are MP only ?

RAAF Mustang campaign would be fun to fly! But I think the deal-breaker for my friends was a lack of aircraft associated with commonwealth, rather than a fully-fledged commonwealth representation. Most of them play a combination of both SP and MP so I don't think the current AI is a deal-breaker for them. At least one of those same friends is now looking to buy Korea once the Deck Ops DLC drops... he made up his mind the instant I told him the Sea Fury was in 🤣

 

Now... someday... if we get a Commonwealth/UN Forces expansion and get flyable Meteor, Firefly, Seafire, Sea Otter (First float plane in IL-2 since RoF? Good to get the dynamics fully coded into Korea before heading back to WW2, Pacific!)... Those aircraft, along with an expansion to Career mode for Commonwealth and UN forces, I definitely think would draw in a crowd 🙂

And maybe at some point, flyable C-47/Li-2 for logistics change of pace for both sides... Logistics ops would also enable the possibility of 13th Hellenic Air Force flying C-47s out of K-9 and K-14.

[Nearlymen]

Dick Peters in Seafire 47 VP480 180/P being moved forward over the barrier after landing on HMS Triumph in Korea 1950.

 

Edited September 4 by Nearlymen

[Kongo]

Meteor is a must. Firelfy would be a nice addition i guess. But id like at least a commonwealth carrier and maybe other ships. HMS Theseus for ex.

[MJones]

Griffon powered Seafires, Meteor and Fireflies?  Take my money now! 

[Nearlymen]

Probably the most Famous Meteor in Korea, George Hales RAAF 77 Sqdn Gloster Meteor F.8 'Halestorm'. On the 27 March 1953 George Hale engaged and shot down a Mig 15.

Edited September 4 by Nearlymen

[PaperPilot]

4 hours ago, Nearlymen said:

Probably the most Famous Meteor in Korea, George Hales RAAF 77 Sqdn Gloster Meteor F.8 'Halestorm'. On the 27 March 1953 George Hale engaged and shot down a Mig 15.

That is very interesting. Thanks for the information.

I would like to see a Meteor in Korea one day.

[Nearlymen]

If this topic interests you then may I suggest getting the two books shown here covering the Commenwealth Air war in Korea (also I've listed a good book about Imjin River as well). Both are excellent historical records of the British and Auatralian involement in Korea. 'With the Carriers in Korea' by John Lansdown is a factual record of the Commonwealth Naval operations (both British and Australian). 'The Forgotten Few' by Doug Hurst is a slightly more easy read of RAAF 77 Sqdn operations in Korea. If the ground war interests you then 'To the Last Round' by Andrew Salmon is a good read about the last stand at Imjin River.

[Valis]

Also this - Furies and Fireflies over Korea

Picked up a copy dirt cheap on eBay - haven't cracked it open yet.

[gecko]

Definitely interested in a Commonwealth expansion. I too would rather have had the Firefly than the F2H-2, and a carrier to go with it. Without them, the Sea Fury is a bit out of place. I'd have rather seen an F3D or F7F to fill in the USN/USMC lineup more than an orphaned Sea Fury. 

But, maybe it's good marketing. Now that we have a Sea Fury we HAVE to have the rest!

Edited September 5 by gecko

[Nearlymen]

2 hours ago, Valis said:

Also this - Furies and Fireflies over Korea

Picked up a copy dirt cheap on eBay - haven't cracked it open yet.

Oh ! I have that one too it's not a bad read, quite informative ! 

[Nearlymen]

Furies and Fireflies Mk.V on HMAS Sydney on rough seas during the Korean Winter. Note Ship identification letter 'K' on the tails of the Aircraft. For all the Commonwealth carriers the letters were 'K' HMAS Sydney. 'P' HMS Triumph, 'T' HMS Theseus, 'R' HMS Glory and 'O' HMS Ocean.

[MajorMagee]

[AndreiTomescu]

You know what i was thinking, guys? Best chanses for a Commonwealth DLC comes from how easy is to build it on the carrier ops dlc. I think things goes like this:

- carrier ops dlc is included in deluxe version. 

- many guys , well, we bought that, so carrier ops won't bring MONEY from those , they've paid it already

- IF carrier ops sees the light of the cpu, and a next dlc is easy and cheap to make, that will bring easy revenue

- this might motivate the birth of a new dlc, like the Commonwealth one, to get some income

- the sea fury is thrown in game (if the carrier ops will be born) as a test of interest, thus without British carrier

- future sales will dictate the future

- at the core of these all, korea, dlc1, dlc2, lies down the game engine. If it will be optimizes (playability, AI, system resources, content) all present and future releases will make sense and money. If not, announcements and dreams, our wishes, won't worth much

- it's difficult for the devs to see things detached from their emotional investment into their endeavours. 

I just hope things will turn out well, and not too late. Timing is also of essence in a competitive yet still niche market.

[AndreiTomescu]

it's in the news, gentlemen.....so it's only a matter of 2-3 yrs.....

[Nearlymen]

I think there is some shrewd thinking in your words and I would tend to agree with what your thoughts are. It obviously makes sense to initially get the US and N. Korean forces out first to try and ensure there is a dedicated user base, and the introduction of US carrier ops is  a sound move for the first DLC. It's the inclusion of the Sea Fury that seems odd ? For anyone making historical missions/campaigns it's use is limited without any supporting infrastructure, whatever missions/campaigns are made using it would probably have to be changed or updated with the introduction further down the line of a Commonwealth DLC. Honestly if a UN aircraft was needed to be introduced in the first DLC to' throw a bone' to the part of the community that maybe into this, then the obvious choice should have been the Meteor, it ticks all the boxes, it's a Commonwealth aircraft. it's land based, historical based missions could all have been introduced from the start. Had the P-51 had an Aussie version as well then all the Australian land based operations could all have been introduced with very little additional work. OK the Austalian flight sim community may not be huge but it was/is there for the taking, and it could have been there from the very begining. But the Sea Fury ? It's been descibed here as an 'orphan' which I think is a great description. Nice to have and toodle around in but on it's own it's a curio (and this is from a Brit who would really like to have this aircraft !). Had the Meteor been included, the road to including the SAAF P-51's and Sabres would be wide open, thus UN land forces would be easily achievable with very little outlay and within what ?..... 6 months to a year, followed by Commonwealth Naval DLC in 2 years ? I'm not a business man and I wouldn't say anyone has 'dropped the ball' but 'fumbled' ? Well..maybe ! Anyway these are just my random personal thoughts, it is what it is and at the moment it's a great release of a new sim with huge potential amd I hope it does well.

Edited September 6 by Nearlymen

[AndreiTomescu]

Had to check shrewd and fumbled meaning, 'cause i'm not a native English speaker 🙂 🙂 , and upon doing so, yes, i do agree to your thoughts.

Even in GB were some "random" planes, that newer truly found their place, since missing  their faction.

But myself being a huge British and especially RAF lover, such a dlc would be tremendous. 

Still, love makes the world go round, and sales have the same effect upon games.....