Are Aircraft Skin Templates Available Yet?

[MGMSwordsman]

Title says it all.  Thanks.

[LukeFF]

Not yet, hopefully soon. 🙂

[migmadmarine]

Do textures still need to be edited in Photoshop or gimp, or is there any support for things like Substance Painter?

[Jaegermeister]

15 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Do textures still need to be edited in Photoshop or gimp, or is there any support for things like Substance Painter?

They are still saved as a single layer compressed .dds skin file with mipmaps similar to the skin files in GB. Now there is no longer a mask layer for reflectivity in the main skin file, the reflectivity is controlled by a second texture layer file that serves the same function. If you can accomplish that with substance painter, you could use it but that is how the file has to be formatted.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

 

4 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Do textures still need to be edited in Photoshop or gimp, or is there any support for things like Substance Painter?

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

They are still saved as a single layer compressed .dds skin file with mipmaps similar to the skin files in GB. Now there is no longer a mask layer for reflectivity in the main skin file, the reflectivity is controlled by a second texture layer file that serves the same function. If you can accomplish that with substance painter, you could use it but that is how the file has to be formatted.

To be precise, the textures consist of two four-channel files. I'm not exactly sure what each channel's contents are, but I guess it's a rather standard PBR setup. I haven't used Substance Painter, but my guess is that it should be able to handle something like that.

[migmadmarine]

I think the trouble is that substance painter would also need to be able to import a 3d mesh, I don't think it can take the mesh shape from the skin files itself. I've not used it either yet as it is a pricy bit of software, but being able to do skinning directly onto the 3d shape would be phenomenal. 

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, migmadmarine said:

I think the trouble is that substance painter would also need to be able to import a 3d mesh, I don't think it can take the mesh shape from the skin files itself. I've not used it either yet as it is a pricy bit of software, but being able to do skinning directly onto the 3d shape would be phenomenal. 

You don't have to import the 3D mesh to edit the skin files. They are a flat image file.

AI Query using Gemini: 

Q:

What programs can save a file as a .dds format with compression and mip maps

A:

Several programs can save files in the .dds format with compression and mipmap generation, with specialized tools often providing the best results for game development.

Top Programs for Saving DDS Files

• NVIDIA Texture Tools Exporter (Standalone or Photoshop Plugin): Highly recommended for creating high-quality, modern DDS files, including support for BC7 and other modern compression types. [1, 2]
• GIMP (with DDS Plugin): Free and open-source, GIMP supports native DDS exporting with compression options (BC1-BC5, DXT) and automatic mipmap generation. [1, 2]
• Paint.NET: A free, lightweight image editor that can save in DDS format with DXT1/3/5 compression and generates mipmaps natively. [1, 2]
• Intel Texture Works Plugin for Photoshop: Specialized plugin providing superior compression results and full support for modern block compression (BC) formats. [1]
• Blender (with Add-on): Allows direct import and export of DDS textures, supporting both compression and mipmap generation. [1]
• reaConverter: A tool for bulk converting images to DDS with options for mipmaps. [1]

Key Considerations

• Compression Types: Use BC7 for modern textures requiring high quality. DXT5 is recommended for transparency, while DXT1 is suited for opaque textures. [1]
• Mip Maps: Enable "Generate Mipmaps" (sometimes labeled as "Generate Mips" or similar) in the export dialog to improve rendering performance and reduce texture shimmering at a distance. [1, 2]
• Power of Two: To ensure maximum compatibility with mipmapping, textures should have dimensions that are a power of two (e.g., 256x256, 512x1024). [1, 2]

 

Q:

Will Adobe substance painter accomplish this task

A:

No, Adobe Substance 3D Painter cannot natively export files directly to the .DDS format. To achieve this, you must rely on standard workarounds or specialized automation tools. [1, 2]

Recommended Workarounds for Substance Painter

• The Intermediate Format Method (Standard): Export your textures from Substance Painter as high-quality uncompressed files—such as .TGA or .PNG. Next, import those files into one of the previously mentioned programs, like Paint.NET or Photoshop with the NVIDIA Texture Tools Exporter, to apply the compression and generate the mipmaps. [1, 2, 3]
• Third-Party Automation Plugins: You can install community-made Python scripts inside Substance Painter to automate the process. For example, tools like the Starfield DDS Exporter GitHub Repository automatically export textures to PNG and immediately call a command-line tool (such as Microsoft's texconv) in the background to handle the DDS conversion, compression, and mipmap creation without leaving the application. [1, 2]
• Game Engine Pipeline: If you are working with game development platforms like Unreal Engine or Unity, you can export your textures from Substance Painter as standard raw files. When imported, the engine's internal texture pipeline will automatically compress the files and generate mipmaps natively. [1]

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

You don't have to import the 3D mesh to edit the skin files. They are a flat image file.

I think what migmadmarine means, is that it might be needed by substance painter, not in general. In which case, no it isn't possible to directly paint onto the 3d model since we don't have access to the latter.

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

AI Query using Gemini: 

Q:

What programs can save a file as a .dds format with compression and mip maps

A:

Several programs can save files in the .dds format with compression and mipmap generation, with specialized tools often providing the best results for game development.

Top Programs for Saving DDS Files

• NVIDIA Texture Tools Exporter (Standalone or Photoshop Plugin): Highly recommended for creating high-quality, modern DDS files, including support for BC7 and other modern compression types. [1, 2]
• GIMP (with DDS Plugin): Free and open-source, GIMP supports native DDS exporting with compression options (BC1-BC5, DXT) and automatic mipmap generation. [1, 2]
• Paint.NET: A free, lightweight image editor that can save in DDS format with DXT1/3/5 compression and generates mipmaps natively. [1, 2]
• Intel Texture Works Plugin for Photoshop: Specialized plugin providing superior compression results and full support for modern block compression (BC) formats. [1]
• Blender (with Add-on): Allows direct import and export of DDS textures, supporting both compression and mipmap generation. [1]
• reaConverter: A tool for bulk converting images to DDS with options for mipmaps. [1]

Key Considerations

• Compression Types: Use BC7 for modern textures requiring high quality. DXT5 is recommended for transparency, while DXT1 is suited for opaque textures. [1]
• Mip Maps: Enable "Generate Mipmaps" (sometimes labeled as "Generate Mips" or similar) in the export dialog to improve rendering performance and reduce texture shimmering at a distance. [1, 2]
• Power of Two: To ensure maximum compatibility with mipmapping, textures should have dimensions that are a power of two (e.g., 256x256, 512x1024). [1, 2]

 

Q:

Will Adobe substance painter accomplish this task

A:

No, Adobe Substance 3D Painter cannot natively export files directly to the .DDS format. To achieve this, you must rely on standard workarounds or specialized automation tools. [1, 2]

Recommended Workarounds for Substance Painter

• The Intermediate Format Method (Standard): Export your textures from Substance Painter as high-quality uncompressed files—such as .TGA or .PNG. Next, import those files into one of the previously mentioned programs, like Paint.NET or Photoshop with the NVIDIA Texture Tools Exporter, to apply the compression and generate the mipmaps. [1, 2, 3]
• Third-Party Automation Plugins: You can install community-made Python scripts inside Substance Painter to automate the process. For example, tools like the Starfield DDS Exporter GitHub Repository automatically export textures to PNG and immediately call a command-line tool (such as Microsoft's texconv) in the background to handle the DDS conversion, compression, and mipmap creation without leaving the application. [1, 2]
• Game Engine Pipeline: If you are working with game development platforms like Unreal Engine or Unity, you can export your textures from Substance Painter as standard raw files. When imported, the engine's internal texture pipeline will automatically compress the files and generate mipmaps natively. [1]

 

I'm afraid this is just another useless AI answer. Quickly reading through it, I spot several issues:

- GIMP doesn't need any additional plug-ins to export to .dds.

- I'd never suggest something as Blender for dealing with .dds images.

- Those "key considerations" are game-specific requirements rather than properties you can freely choose.

- The issue has never been whether or not Substance Painter can export to .dds; is whether or not it can deal with IL-2's PBR setup.

[Jaegermeister]

9 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I think what migmadmarine means, is that it might be needed by substance painter, not in general. In which case, no it isn't possible to directly paint onto the 3d model since we don't have access to the latter.

I'm afraid this is just another useless AI answer. Quickly reading through it, I spot several issues:

- GIMP doesn't need any additional plug-ins to export to .dds.

- I'd never suggest something as Blender for dealing with .dds images.

- Those "key considerations" are game-specific requirements rather than properties you can freely choose.

- The issue has never been whether or not Substance Painter can export to .dds; is whether or not it can deal with IL-2's PBR setup.

Ok, ignoring the frequently useless AI responses, it is simple enough to edit the skin files using GIMP which is free, and not terribly difficult to learn. It used to need a plug-in, but the current version no longer does.

The new skin for the 80th FBS used in Home by Christmas was made with an F-80C template that already exists and reference from the EA skins. There is a new naming protocol for the 2 part skin files, but other than that it is just like the skins in GB.

My main point is that not much has changed, it is still the same basic process as before with some minor changes, much like the scripted campaign file structure. That is the same as before with the addition of a couple of .json files.

i am sure the templates will be available before too much longer when they are ready.

[BlitzPig_EL]

And hopefully some more un numbered skins of the various units in theater.

[actionhank]

I'm definitely looking forward to the templates dropping as well. 

I really want to create a few custom skins for my flights so I can add little details like kill tallies for my pilots or maybe some custom colors so I know who's who when I'm flying around. It would be cool to look over and see the blue nose of my 2nd flights, or see the 5 kills on the fuselage of one of my other quality pilots as they nurse their plane back to base with some damage.

[Jaegermeister]

17 minutes ago, actionhank said:

I'm definitely looking forward to the templates dropping as well. 

I really want to create a few custom skins for my flights so I can add little details like kill tallies for my pilots or maybe some custom colors so I know who's who when I'm flying around. It would be cool to look over and see the blue nose of my 2nd flights, or see the 5 kills on the fuselage of one of my other quality pilots as they nurse their plane back to base with some damage.

You can always do what I initially did. Extract the skin files from the game files, and make your own template. You can base the panel locations on what exists in game now and add your own layers by either copy pasting for things like internal mechanics or reducing opacity and “tracing” the flat skin image files with your own new layers.

Templates are a nice shortcut, but not required at this early stage. Most planes are bare metal with country and unit markings now, so if you can make the bare metal base and add shading and weathering layers, you are most of the way there.

If you just want to add kill markings and ID colors, you could do that over the current skins and save them with a different name.

[actionhank]

3 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

You can always do what I initially did. Extract the skin files from the game files, and make your own template. You can base the panel locations on what exists in game now and add your own layers by either copy pasting for things like internal mechanics or reducing opacity and “tracing” the flat skin image files with your own new layers.

Templates are a nice shortcut, but not required at this early stage. Most planes are bare metal with country and unit markings now, so if you can make the bare metal base and add shading and weathering layers, you are most of the way there.

If you just want to add kill markings and ID colors, you could do that over the current skins and save them with a different name.

I was honestly thinking the same thing this morning. Wouldn't be too tough to do some simple editing and add some easier stuff. 

[Jaegermeister]

35 minutes ago, actionhank said:

I was honestly thinking the same thing this morning. Wouldn't be too tough to do some simple editing and add some easier stuff. 

If you do that, I was informed that the skin file names currently have to have #1 at the end, and the texture/reflectivity file should end with #1#1 for it to work together correctly. You will see what I am talking about when you extract the skin files.

I don’t know if or when that will be changed.

[DetCord]

This is why I loathe AI. Well, that, and the fact that every model pulls most of its data/answers from literal cesspool of the internet. Otherwise known as Reddit.

As someone that uses Substance and Coat on a regular basis, you absolutely do need to import the MDL for spacial references, else there is nothing to texture, which has already been pointed out above. The secondary issue is that the the developers encrypt most of their models, therefore never going to happen. They've made minor exceptions in the past but those were for primarily for mod teams (Baltic map) and even their access was limited. You could always ask.

25 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

If you do that, I was informed that the skin file names currently have to have #1 at the end, and the texture/reflectivity file should end with #1#1 for it to work together correctly. You will see what I am talking about when you extract the skin files.

I don’t know if or when that will be changed.

Examples for anyone else wondering are here.

[migmadmarine]

7 minutes ago, DetCord said:

This is why I loathe AI. Well, that, and the fact that every model pulls most of its data/answers from literal cesspool of the internet. Otherwise known as Reddit.

As someone that uses Substance and Coat on a regular basis, you absolutely do need to import the MDL for spacial references, else there is nothing to texture, which has already been pointed out above. The secondary issue is that the the developers encrypt most of their models, therefore never going to happen. They've made minor exceptions in the past but those were for primarily for mod teams (Baltic map) and even their access was limited. You could always ask.

 

Thanks for the solid answer. I've been thinking of grabbing substance painter for use with games like Nuclear Option and Railroader, and I seem to recall reading that the Combat Pilot devs are planning to support use of it as well.

 

I can get why the devs might not want to put the meshes out to the public, but it would be great if they did. While I've done plenty of skinning in gimp, and intend to do more, things like field applied camo can be a real pain to align across seams, so it would be wonderful to be able to paint direct to the model instead. 

[DetCord]

22 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Thanks for the solid answer. I've been thinking of grabbing substance painter for use with games like Nuclear Option and Railroader, and I seem to recall reading that the Combat Pilot devs are planning to support use of it as well.

 

I can get why the devs might not want to put the meshes out to the public, but it would be great if they did. While I've done plenty of skinning in gimp, and intend to do more, things like field applied camo can be a real pain to align across seams, so it would be wonderful to be able to paint direct to the model instead. 

If you're familiar with Photoshop then Substance is great because it works a lot like it, via layers and a slew of similar tool sets. Gimp doesn't count. That said, it has a moderately steep learning curve for its more advanced features like materials, comp stacks, asset manipulation, etc. I'd suggest Photoshop as a starting point and moving forward from there.

Even if I had access to the IL-2 catalogue of assets, I'd probably stick with PS for livery creation, ex. below. But that's just me.

Spoiler

 

[actionhank]

43 minutes ago, DetCord said:

If you're familiar with Photoshop then Substance is great because it works a lot like it, via layers and a slew of similar tool sets. Gimp doesn't count. That said, it has a moderately steep learning curve for its more advanced features like materials, comp stacks, asset manipulation, etc. I'd suggest Photoshop as a starting point and moving forward from there.

Even if I had access to the IL-2 catalogue of assets, I'd probably stick with PS for livery creation, ex. below. But that's just me.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I've never been able to actually use Substance painter, but the idea of it sounds heavenly compared to the usual method (especially in DCS where I do most of my skinning). 

I remember doing the AH-64 in DCS, and I stupidly decided I wanted to do a camo pattern for the Czech Air Force who was getting some AH-1Zs that had a really nice camo pattern, and so I dove into the 4 or 5 1024x1024 template files...only to discover that every single one had about 30 to 50 bolts and screws on it that were all seemingly randomly mapped around the plane. Painting it in Substance, I have to guess that they were able to effortlessly apply the weathering and color to the helicopter, which wasn't too bad when they were operating in Olive Green. I on the other hand got to spend the better part of a week just manually trying to locate each and every one...bolt-by-bolt, until I got them all right.

I never made another AH-64 skin after that.

[WarmWombat]

In my view Substance Painter is NOT suitable for making liveries. It is a tool meant for baking details into 3D meshes (that you likely created yourself), and then doing advanced PBR based painting etc. It is great for a layer based PBR workflow, but it NOT a suitable replacement for Photoshop/Gimp etc.

Even If you you manage to get hold a 3D mesh, you still won't have access to the high detail mesh that is used to bake details into your lower res mesh (that you will paint on). If you are the 3D modeller, Substance Painter does allow one to export the PBR layers to a Photoshop format that makes livery painting easier, especially if someone only wants to do diffuse/albedo/colour painting. Most (if not all) high-quality liveres in sims like DCS World are done using Photoshop. 

So unless you are an experienced 3D modeller and have extensive experience with Substance/Adobe 3D Painter, I recommend stay away from it. It great for creating paint kits if you are the creator, but a lot of information gets lost if you only bake from a low res or in-game mesh.

For those interested in making liveries I highly recommend getting familiar with vector based non-destructive workflows in Photoshop. Using vectors & curves, one can create much better camo lines than is possible in Substance. There are free alternatives to Photoshop such as the well known Gimp, or Affinity by Canva.

And to confirm what @actionhank said about the AH-64 apache skin for DCS - that UV map was an absolute disaster. It took me days using grid-based UV layers in Photoshop to hunt down those rivets. At one point I starting colouring about 10 at a time, applying the skin and checking where they were on the model. Time I will never get back.

It would be great to figure out how to change the USAF emblem on the F-51D's for example - many other NATO countries flew them in Korea.

[actionhank]

2 hours ago, WarmWombat said:

In my view Substance Painter is NOT suitable for making liveries. It is a tool meant for baking details into 3D meshes (that you likely created yourself), and then doing advanced PBR based painting etc. It is great for a layer based PBR workflow, but it NOT a suitable replacement for Photoshop/Gimp etc.

Even If you you manage to get hold a 3D mesh, you still won't have access to the high detail mesh that is used to bake details into your lower res mesh (that you will paint on). If you are the 3D modeller, Substance Painter does allow one to export the PBR layers to a Photoshop format that makes livery painting easier, especially if someone only wants to do diffuse/albedo/colour painting. Most (if not all) high-quality liveres in sims like DCS World are done using Photoshop. 

So unless you are an experienced 3D modeller and have extensive experience with Substance/Adobe 3D Painter, I recommend stay away from it. It great for creating paint kits if you are the creator, but a lot of information gets lost if you only bake from a low res or in-game mesh.

For those interested in making liveries I highly recommend getting familiar with vector based non-destructive workflows in Photoshop. Using vectors & curves, one can create much better camo lines than is possible in Substance. There are free alternatives to Photoshop such as the well known Gimp, or Affinity by Canva.

And to confirm what @actionhank said about the AH-64 apache skin for DCS - that UV map was an absolute disaster. It took me days using grid-based UV layers in Photoshop to hunt down those rivets. At one point I starting colouring about 10 at a time, applying the skin and checking where they were on the model. Time I will never get back.

It would be great to figure out how to change the USAF emblem on the F-51D's for example - many other NATO countries flew them in Korea.

Glad to know I've got someone else with me who got to live that hell. It sounds like you did something similar to what I did. I basically tried to find a way to do as many at once as possible, so I started this system where I would use one color to make as many lines/patterns as possible on each bolt/screw to make it easier to find on the skin.

This is just one small sample of what my insanity turned into: