Bumpy runways and bouncing discussion

[cunumdrum]

I find most aircraft are too stiff in the oleos and instead of compressing as they should the aircraft just bounces down the runway. Even at near stall speed the aircraft still bounce.

[JG1_Vonrd]

+1

[YoYo]

+1, thats true. F-51D bounces like a trampoline on unpaved ground. I reported this in the aircraft-specific reports section.

[Jade_Monkey]

First I want to say that I'm happy to see the uneven runway feature implemented in game. The purpose of this post is to have a discussion and provide feedback on the uneven runway and the suspension/dampeners on the undercarriage.

Second, I also want to acknowledge that some of the problem here is a pilot skill issue, and we (I?) need to adapt to the new circumstances.

Having said that, I feel like some of the fields are way too bumpy and combined with what seems like stiff dampeners on the undercarriage, it makes a very bouncy experience. Is anyone going through the same thing?

This YouTube video comparing the P51 to "another game" touches upon this (I don't automatically assume everything in the other sim is correct and the reference for the industry).

 

 

[JG11Bear]

Yes very stiff suspension in all aircraft I've tested. Makes a takeoff look a bit clumsy when trying to rotate and being bounced all over the place.

[AndreiTomescu]

Yes, upon taking off/landing, all the planes I've tried (80, 84, 86, mig, mustang) are bouncing hard.

I've imagined that maybe that was the actual surface? Or maybe it's too much bouncing? 

If we would have an advanced airstrip, like those the US build in ww2 with prefabricated metal grills, we could test how in goes. I suppose those were quite flat. Have we in Korea? I dunno.

Softer suspension: might be a solution, but did a 2 tons aicraft have such soft shocks? I dunno.

In GB, even on dirt/grass airfields, this wasn't happening, but those surfaces were flat (game design)

So I've tried to land a Sabre on a main street in Seoul. Ahem, ahem....i crashed. Will try tommorow with the Mustang, see how it goes.

[LonnyEnds]

I fully agree I had the same feelings towards oleo stiffness.

My experience is mainly with B1900s but in general you would expect considerably more movement. It is currently acting as if they greatly overcharged with nitrogen when servicing. 

 

 

I think this video illustrates the oleo travel on an uneven surface well. From viewing you video they are basically not moving at all.

The other sim looks much more realistic arguably a bit on the too soft side.

 

[Avimimus]

So tell me about the suspension on the Yak-9P...

[FuriousMeow]

Its different , but so far I haven't yet had an issue with it - especially on landing and I've been testing with mild turbulence and crosswinds at 5 or so mph or kmh... not sure which value is used in mission setup but I've been crabbin a lot.

I remember watching that Tuskegee Airmen film from HBO a long ways back - starring Laurence Fishnurne, Cuba Gooding Jr, Andre Braugher, Courtney Vance, Etc, and there's a scene where a P51 does a 3-point takeoff which stood out to my young brain because I'd only heard of 3-point landings through games like Aces over Europe and I'd try to perfect that in that game and every subsequent air combat sim since. With the new rolling airstrip the 3-point takeoff now makes sense, especially with low hours on an airframe.

[YoYo]

11 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

First I want to say that I'm happy to see the uneven runway feature implemented in game. The purpose of this post is to have a discussion and provide feedback on the uneven runway and the suspension/dampeners on the undercarriage.

Second, I also want to acknowledge that some of the problem here is a pilot skill issue, and we (I?) need to adapt to the new circumstances.

Having said that, I feel like some of the fields are way too bumpy and combined with what seems like stiff dampeners on the undercarriage, it makes a very bouncy experience. Is anyone going through the same thing?

This YouTube video comparing the P51 to "another game" touches upon this (I don't automatically assume everything in the other sim is correct and the reference for the industry).

 

 

It was reported already as a bug.

 

[SanekFl]

yeah, Command T tested this recently, video: https://youtu.be/MnW01_1v-eA?si=_dI8QzT12dNK3PDd&t=1520

Definitely there is a room for improvement.

[YoYo]

7 hours ago, SanekFl said:

yeah, Command T tested this recently, video: https://youtu.be/MnW01_1v-eA?si=_dI8QzT12dNK3PDd&t=1520

Definitely there is a room for improvement.

This is an old video. The Mustang received some changes in 002b, but now there are significant improvements, and at least the F-51D doesn't have this problem.

 

[SquidTorgar]

The issue isnt the runways (great to see the uneveness) its the stiffness of all the aircrafts suspension. DCS models this much better, hopefully it will be toned down in future updates?

[Gavrick]

It is quite challenging to find sources describing the behavior of shock absorber struts.

At present, the shock struts are "by default" tuned to absorb energy during landings with a high flare — and the aircraft "dropping" from a height of several tens of centimeters (roughly one foot). In this scenario, they will absorb the impact energy and reach full compression.

This represents the "reference behavior" of the landing gear suspension as a whole, in the absence of other data (which, as I noted, are seldom available).

Therefore, if you happen to have any materials — documents or videos clearly showing the shock absorber operation — I would be very interested to review them.

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, Gavrick said:

It is quite challenging to find sources describing the behavior of shock absorber struts.

At present, the shock struts are "by default" tuned to absorb energy during landings with a high flare — and the aircraft "dropping" from a height of several tens of centimeters (roughly one foot). In this scenario, they will absorb the impact energy and reach full compression.

This represents the "reference behavior" of the landing gear suspension as a whole, in the absence of other data (which, as I noted, are seldom available).

Therefore, if you happen to have any materials — documents or videos clearly showing the shock absorber operation — I would be very interested to review them.

May be of use. From the P-51D/K erection and maintenance manual. Instructions for refilling the main gear shocks below. Another part of the manual to do with troubleshooting gear issues states that 

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:23 AM by Stonehouse
better pics

[FuriousMeow]

Thought it wasn't too bad until I tried a F80 take off fully loaded from K-46 where almost towards the end of my takeoff run I was catapulted into the air like I was coming off the end of one of the first two Chinese aircraft carriers with the ski ramps.

Luckily I was going fast enough and dumped flaps but that was..  not quite right. 

Edited Wednesday at 12:41 AM by FuriousMeow
still use to Pursuit designation

[reidarpeidar]

This might be the reason why the AI crashes so often on takeoff.

[YoYo]

Currently, the issue, at least with the F-51D, has been resolved in patch 002b. Everything now works as it should, and the shock absorbers absorb bumps very well. I don't know about other aircraft, but this has been fixed in the Mustang.

[Aapje]

9 hours ago, Gavrick said:

It is quite challenging to find sources describing the behavior of shock absorber struts.

This is a tunable part of the aircraft, so in practice this would probably be tuned based on feedback of the pilots. So I would suggest that if we as players like it, it is probably similar to how they would have tuned it back then. 

Quote

At present, the shock struts are "by default" tuned to absorb energy during landings with a high flare — and the aircraft "dropping" from a height of several tens of centimeters (roughly one foot). In this scenario, they will absorb the impact energy and reach full compression.

Do you increase the inflation (and thus stiffness) when the aircraft is loaded up more heavily? Because the above manual suggests that the mechanics would generally do that.

[Jade_Monkey]

10 hours ago, YoYo said:

Currently, the issue, at least with the F-51D, has been resolved in patch 002b. Everything now works as it should, and the shock absorbers absorb bumps very well. I don't know about other aircraft, but this has been fixed in the Mustang.

Respectfully, are you sure it's not placebo effect with the patches? 

That happened a lot with GB, especially early on. People would notice changes that weren't there.

I don't recall them mentioning any particular fixes on the shock absorbers and the post above from @Gavrick doesn't make it seem like they have any plans to change it till there is some new documentation.

[YoYo]

3 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Respectfully, are you sure it's not placebo effect with the patches? 

That happened a lot with GB, especially early on. People would notice changes that weren't there.

I don't recall them mentioning any particular fixes on the shock absorbers and the post above from @Gavrick doesn't make it seem like they have any plans to change it till there is some new documentation.

99.99% accurate. Because it doesn't bounce like it used to, like on trampoline, jumping over a molehill. Of course, over time, I've probably become a better pilot, but currently the F-51D absorbs all the bumps very well. Unfortunately, the changelog for 002b hasn't been published, so we don't have an official one. I'm not talking about other planes, it may be different here.

[Dash,Polder]

You can see the bumps, so adapt with your power settings in the Mustang, no one would go full power in the real world until they cleared the worst portion.  Works a charm, even reduced power takeoffs will help tremendously, the runways go forever, no real need for max performing over a rough field.  Old habits are hard to break, especially having to use actual runways for some players. 

[Avimimus]

So... the Yak-9P... do its shock observers need looking into too? Or is it just my piloting skills? 😄

[AndreiTomescu]

You know what's funny?

I've landed on a road, at the outskirts of Sinuiju (see screenshots thread) and the road was much, much neat (less bumpy) compared to all the landstrips I've tried so far.

Being careful with the electric poles on the right, I veered a bit with the left wheel on the side, and yes, that was bumpy.

But the road surface was quite nice.

P.S. with a Mig15

[Panzerlang]

I broke the IL10 on landing, it was like a pogo stick.