Austro-Hungarian Aircraft for Flying Circus?

[Avimimus]

18 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

Yeah like everyone learns in grade school that an event in Austria-Hungary is what set in motion a domino effect that started WW1 but after that fades into obscurity save for that they fought Russia and Serbia and capitulated at the end. My dad practically learned even in a private school in the 1970s that WW1 was practically the Second Franco-Prussian War with America, the British Commonwealth and Russia slapped on.

Exactly!

It is amusing that I've been 'down in the weeds' trying to confirm the locations of squadron airfields (which suggests that the map needs to be extended a bit westward to include Trentino/Triente), so I've not been looking at the big picture.

I was reading about Vittorio Veneto and how the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian union was a factor triggering the Armistice on the Western Front as well (although the blockade likely was the decisive blow to the German ability to fight)... and I suddenly remember the start of the war, how the assassination by Serbian Nationalists of the Austro-Hungarian Heir Archduke Franz Ferdinand, and the punitive expedition against Serbia, triggered the Russian intervention and started the war!

Yet, in our education, we almost entirely ignore all of this!

 

22 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

I don’t think it was ever stated that the Tarnopol map and Sikorskies would never come to FC, so let’s pray that a team can take up the job. Loved flying the Ilya Muromets.

An Italian Front module would lay the ground work for such a module. I think the only issue is that sometimes Austria-Hungary sent second-line variants. So, it might make sense to model an earlier Hansa-Brandenburg C.I (s.64/68 or s.26)? or the Albatros B.I (which as actually a license produced Albatros B.II, heavily redesigned and carrying a strong armament). Aces flying this early Albatros shot down 18 aircraft (looking at the list it seems most were Morane-Saulnier P, followed by Voisins).

Looking at the list of Russian aces, most kills were made on the Nieuport N.11 & N.17 or the the Spad S.VII & S.XIII! The remaining kill breakdown is as follows:

Spoiler

Nieuport N.21 (21 kills)
Grigorovich M-9 (5 kills by one ace)
Morane-Saulnier L/LA (5 kills by three aces)
Caudron G.IV (3 kills)
Nieuport N.10 (3 kills)
Morane-Saulnier H (3 kills)
Morane-Saulnier G (1 kill)
Grigorovich M-15 (1 kill)

Note that other interesting aircraft - such as the Spad A.2 or Sikorski S.16 which shot down aircraft successfully - however, the pilots flying these aircraft didn't go on to achieve five or more kills.

So a notional module might look like:

Russian aircraft: Nieuport N.21, Sikorsky Ilya Muromets S-25, Morane-Saulnier L/LA?, Grigorovich M-9?, Sikorski S.XVI??

Central Powers: Albatros (Oeffag) D.II s.53; Roland D.II; An Austro-Hungarian two-seater*; Zeppelin-Staaken R.VI?

It could then be padded out with license produce versions of the N.11 and N.17 (etc.)

*Note: The Austro Hungarian two-seater has several options: Hansa-Brandenburg C.I s.26 (Phonix) or s.64/s.68 (UFAG) or Albatros B (license produced B.II with heavier armament). Russia could also probably do with another two-seater (perhaps as an AI aircraft). The Morane-Saulnier L scored the most kills in the hands of aces, but it was far from the most numerous two-seater in Russian Service with the Voisin LAS (Dux license produced) or Farman F.30 being very numerous, with the Anatra D (two seater) or Morane-Saulnier P or Caudron G also being options.

P.S. I do kind-of like the idea of having an Ilya Muromets vs. Zeppelin-Staaken R.VI module... it is a bit too bad the the Ilya Muromets variant with the cannon was abandoned after the earliest prototypes. Part of me still finds the idea of standing on a completely exposed open platform attached in front of the nose of the aircraft, and hand operating a 37mm swivel cannon (with ammunition presumably being passed out to the gunner periodically) kind of hilarious in a Mad Max kind-of way.

[Avimimus]

Another review of the map scope. The battle of the Piave also included an offensive into the Asiago plateau (an attempted encirclement). The Austro-Hungarian airfields supporting that offensive into the Asiago were located in Trentino/Trient valley system. Having gone that far west it makes sense to include Lake Garda, and thus cover the entire Italian Front.

In this notional map I've removed the Austro-Hungarian airfields along the Peri-Adriatic seam, as well as some of the northernmost mountain battles. While there may have been some reconnaissance units, the amount of air-combat would have been small (perhaps consisting of a handful of trans-alpine bombing raids). That said - one could probably extend the map north to include these battles and east to include Fiume - without actually making the map larger than the Great Battles maps are. If one wanted to reduce the effort it might make as much sense to remove Mantua and the areas to the southwest of Mantua as that would remove a few cities. There is probably a case for keeping Ferrara though - as there was a Caproni base located there.

For comparison - the front lines (note: Prior to Caporreto where the Italian front lines collapsed back to the Piave river):

Spoiler

 

[Airborne2001]

I'm returning after a bit! Awesome work on the maps! If it would be of any help, I know that the Dark Blue World (DBW) mod for IL-2 First Gen has scenarios depicting war over the Adriatic. Those could be helpful if you would like in terms of planning out potential missions.

[Avimimus]

So, I'd previously inferred that the Aviatik (Berg) D.II was a late war fighter that was passed over for mass production in favour of the Fokker D.VII - with the few pre-production units being sent to the front lines in the desperate last days of the war. This was wrong.

It would be better to describe the D.II as an alternative cantilever wing variant of the D.I that is roughly contemporary with it. The reason for lack of mass production is more related to caution around the wing design. In total, eleven aircraft were dispatched to front line units to see if they could make use of the extra speed - and the first arrived in October 1917 (around the same time the D.I s.138 arrived at the Front and only a couple of months before mass production s.38 arrived).

Aviatik (Berg) D.II s.39:

Despite the D.II designation, this series of aircraft were essentially Aviatik D.I s.138 prototypes fitted with cantilever wings. In October 1917, 39.01 achieved 217 km/h. Extensive testing showed that the wings could handle the degree of overload required for combat. However, there were downsides: Climb rate was somewhat reduced compared to the normal D.I s.138. The upper wing struts showed vibrations at maximum propwash, which became worse during sharp turns. Roll rates were also reduced compared to the s.138 (likely due to inadequate stiffness of the upper wing). The design was also tested with the Gebauer Motorgéppuska 1918.M (1500 rpm synchronised machine gun). Note: The competing Schwarlose machine guns are often quoted as having 550 rpm or less, but the 16A variant could achieve 880 rpm.

Eleven of these aircraft were dispatched to the front (two in October 1917, the five in July 1918, and four in September 1918). The final September 1918 deployment had different radiator configurations (two were equipped with Hefa side radiators and two were s.339 patterned aircraft with leading edge radiators), while the other earlier deployments were of a standard configuration (similar to the D.I s.138).

Overall, this makes the aircraft more feasible as a potential Collector Plane than I had previously thought - having more potential use within the campaign and also be less costly to model.

D.II S.39 (top) vs. D.I s.138 (bottom)

[Avimimus]

9 hours ago, Airborne2001 said:

I'm returning after a bit! Awesome work on the maps! If it would be of any help, I know that the Dark Blue World (DBW) mod for IL-2 First Gen has scenarios depicting war over the Adriatic. Those could be helpful if you would like in terms of planning out potential missions.

Thanks for the tip! The Suddaby-Worcester Austrian Flying Boat Database has both the bombing raids and interceptions flown by the Austro-Hungarian naval air stations against Italian bombing raids. What is missing are data for the artillery spotting and reconnaissance flights by these aircraft.

Alexis Mehtidis has also published a fairly complete order of battle for the aircraft on both sides (including land aircraft) - however, it doesn't really cover what they were being used for. Most English language books are focussed on aces (which doesn't capture two-seater operations very well) or manufacturers. So, there tends to be a bit of a gap in my knowledge regarding what a lot of the land based Fliken were focussing on at various dates.

If anyone would like to help with research - or wants to visit to the Austrian archives to confirm whether some technical drawings exist - please DM me!

[Avimimus]

Speaking of the Aviatik D.I - there is another unexpected relative: A two-seat counterpart - the Aviatik C.I.

Fast and lightly built, it was found to be a difficult photographic platform. Both sides found value in single-seat reconnaissance fighters towards the end of the war, and the Austro-Hungarians found themselves increasingly outnumbered and in need of escort fighters. As a result, a significant portion of these aircraft were converted into the Aviatik (Berg) C.I single-seat fighter variant.

Below we can see a complete conversion (top image) along with a more easily reversible single-seat conversion (lower image) which retains the gunner ring:

So how does it compare with the leading Italian operated fighters of the period? I removed the weight of the rear gun and its ammunition, as well as the weight of the second crew member to estimate the overall weight... producing the following numbers:

183 km/h; 21.8 kg/sq.m; 0.28/0.18 power to weight; 6.08 power to wing area = Hanriot HD.1

180 km/h; 23.5 kg/sq.m; 0.34/0.25 power to weight; 8.07 power to wing area = Aviatik (Berg) C.I (est. single seat)

211 km/h; 28.5 kg/sq.m; 0.33/0.23 power to weight; 9.5 power to wing area = Spad S.XIII

188km/h; 33.43 kg/sq.m; 0.29/0.21 power to weight; 9.690 power to wing area (Oeffag 153)

What can we tell from this comparison?

- It had a lower wing loading than the Spad S.XIII and a higher power to weight ratio. This suggests that it could probably turn inside of the Spad S.XIII, although it would also likely lose speed faster in a turn.

- It is about the same speed as the Hanriot HD.1 but has a slightly higher wing loading. This is compensated for by a significantly higher power-to-weight ratio which might allow it to stay in the fight.

- Compared to the most successful Austro-Hungarian fighter (the Oeffag Albatros s.153), the single-seat C.I would have a lower wing loading and a better power to weight ratio, but slightly inferior speed.

All of this makes it look relatively competitive, with potential for good horizontal manoeuvrability.

That said, without a detailed analysis of the somewhat unusual airfoils used on the Aviatik (Berg) D.I and C.I, it is difficult to be certain about how sharply it could turn. There might also be some doubts as to its roll rate. It is also worth noting that it had half the climb rate of the Aviatik (Berg) D.I.

P.S. The up-engined variant of which was one of the fastest Central-Powers two-seaters at 185 km/h.

[Avimimus]

Is it me - or does this look like the instrument panel? If it is - then cross-referencing the panel with other aircraft from the same time by the same manufacturers and carefully measuring the instrument diametres - might allow us to finally reconstruct the instrument panel of the 'CC'? We can already get a pretty good idea of the seating arrangement and interior of the rear half of the cockpit from other photos.