Why no scripted campaigns for bombers?

[jokash]

Other than "Havoc" (which is more an attacker),and given the repetitive and uninspiring career mode,did anyone have any wish to create a scripted bomber campaign? I hope the situation changes once we get B-25 and B-26.

Does anyone know of any scripted bomber campaigns?

There are plenty of instances where He111 and especially Ju88's were used as tactical bombers.

[sandmarken]

People complain as soon as the flight time to target pass 10 minutes. Taking off, getting in formation, flying to target in a formation of b25 or 26 woud probably be too slow and boring for most? 

I guess if most missions had air start and interesting encounters in the air a b26 campaign coud be pretty interesting. If on autopilot, the gunners coud be the players task during most of the flying. 

[jokash]

2 hours ago, sandmarken said:

People complain as soon as the flight time to target pass 10 minutes.

Obviously for them bomber gameplay would be boring as a whole,not just the longer flying time.

[Kubert]

Another downside of a bomber is, that it is hard to influence our own survival in it. As fighter or ground attacker is possible to dodge and dogfight enemies, but in bomber, especially in target area during aiming or formation keeping, survival would be a lottery. Realistic, yet possibly frustrating from gameplay perspective. Especially after 15-20 minutes long trip from some rear airfield. So, I don't blame campaign creators that they never did that. Probably wouldn't be favourite campaign for many players.

[sandmarken]

49 minutes ago, Kubert said:

Another downside of a bomber is, that it is hard to influence our own survival in it. As fighter or ground attacker is possible to dodge and dogfight enemies, but in bomber, especially in target area during aiming or formation keeping, survival would be a lottery. Realistic, yet possibly frustrating from gameplay perspective. Especially after 15-20 minutes long trip from some rear airfield. So, I don't blame campaign creators that they never did that. Probably wouldn't be favourite campaign for many players.

It is actually possible and pretty easy to influense what planes an ai will attack. So it coud be made so that the player bomber woud survive encounters with the enemy pretty much every time. This woud ofc work best if the player do not know that they have high odds. I have used the trick in some of my works when it was important that the enemy do not focus the player. 

 

[Jaegermeister]

 

4 hours ago, jokash said:

Other than "Havoc" (which is more an attacker),and given the repetitive and uninspiring career mode,did anyone have any wish to create a scripted bomber campaign? I hope the situation changes once we get B-25 and B-26.

Does anyone know of any scripted bomber campaigns?

 

Uhhh.. Gestapo Hunters is a tactical bomber campaign in the Mosquito.

That may not be what you referring to, but if you mean a level bombing campaign I would agree that 95% of players don't have the patience to get past 2 missions.

 

Edited May 4 by Jaegermeister

[jokash]

45 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

Uhhh.. Gestapo Hunters is a tactical bomber campaign in the Mosquito.

That may not be what you referring to, but if you mean a level bombing campaign I would agree that 95% of players don't have the patience to get past 2 missions.

Yes so is "Train Busters" (which is probably one of my favorite campaigns).

Still i would like to to see a scripted campaign with He111 or Ju88's during many times when they were employed for railway and logistics bombardment, but also were often used as a fire brigade in sectors where Soviet breakthrough's would happen and they would go after the vehicle columns and often times going after tanks from relatively low altitude (as referenced many times in Black Cross Red Star books).

The point is it that it would be created by human hand and have a feeling and atmosphere of the authors intent rather than,soulless mission generator from career mode.

[Jaegermeister]

 

25 minutes ago, jokash said:

Yes so is "Train Busters" (which is probably one of my favorite campaigns).

Still i would like to to see a scripted campaign with He111 or Ju88's during many times when they were employed for railway and logistics bombardment, but also were often used as a fire brigade in sectors where Soviet breakthrough's would happen and they would go after the vehicle columns and often times going after tanks from relatively low altitude (as referenced many times in Black Cross Red Star books).

The point is it that it would be created by human hand and have a feeling and atmosphere of the authors intent rather than,soulless mission generator from career mode.

I think that’s a great idea too. The most important thing to making your own campaign is to be inspired by events in a subject that you are very interested in. That’s why I and many others started making them.

If you need any help putting it together, everyone here is very helpful in sorting out the details.

[Juri_JS]

8 hours ago, jokash said:

Yes so is "Train Busters" (which is probably one of my favorite campaigns).

Still i would like to to see a scripted campaign with He111 or Ju88's during many times when they were employed for railway and logistics bombardment, but also were often used as a fire brigade in sectors where Soviet breakthrough's would happen and they would go after the vehicle columns and often times going after tanks from relatively low altitude (as referenced many times in Black Cross Red Star books).

The point is it that it would be created by human hand and have a feeling and atmosphere of the authors intent rather than,soulless mission generator from career mode.

 

A real pain in the game is creating larger bomber formations and keeping them together. I really hope Il-2 Korea will have an option to make it easier. What would probably work best is a Ju-88/He-111 campaign set in 1941/1942, when Luftwaffe bombers flew many battlefield interdiction missions in smaller loose groups. Operations during the early part of the Stalingrad campaign in the summer of 1942 would be a good example.

Here parts of the combat diary of III./KG 55, that gives a good overview of the mission types flown during this time:

http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/3557_02.html

[mrtomek]

There is also historical Blitz campaign for Ar-234 with long routes to targets and nice map with all targets.

I prepared this campaign a little for me by adding target heights to map, NDBs, more bombs (1xsc500 for ar234 is definitely not enough for such a plane) and adding/correcting wind speed/dir. in mission description - there were errors of 180 degrees (probably due to the fact that in editor we set direction in which wind blows (TO, not FROM)), so it is advised preventively to always check windsocks, smokes and info in bombsight view.

I must also admit that bomber missions and campaigns (also in two fantastic user-made dynamic campaign generators) are definitely more interesting in IL-2 CloD Blitz+Tobruk like flying bombers in CloD itself.

PS. I managed to beautify ugly as hell Ju-88 in IL2GB by removing (making invisible) this useless and covering the entire view MG81 in cockpit. Now the view is quite impressive and I can see all important gauges.

[jokash]

7 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

 

A real pain in the game is creating larger bomber formations and keeping them together. I really hope Il-2 Korea will have an option to make it easier. What would probably work best is a Ju-88/He-111 campaign set in 1941/1942, when Luftwaffe bombers flew many battlefield interdiction missions in smaller loose groups. Operations during the early part of the Stalingrad campaign in the summer of 1942 would be a good example.

Yes i was also thinking of smaller groups,3 to 9 aircraft,more for some specific missions where the context requires it,but not a bomber campaign centered around big bomber formations for the Luftwaffe missions (or Pe2 since we don't have any scripted campaign for it aswell).

6 hours ago, mrtomek said:

There is also historical Blitz campaign for Ar-234 with long routes to targets and nice map with all targets.

Can i have the link for it?

Might even have a look at ILCoD (one thing i saw that i really didn't like was that the enemy AI knew when the crosshair was on it and it went into a 90 degree bank every time the crosshair was on it...even though that doesn't have a relation to bomber gameplay).

[mrtomek]

23 minutes ago, jokash said:

Can i have the link for it?

Might even have a look at ILCoD (one thing i saw that i really didn't like was that the enemy AI knew when the crosshair was on it and it went into a 90 degree bank every time the crosshair was on it...even though that doesn't have a relation to bomber gameplay).

There is very important topic on this group (unfortunately still not pinned by moderators) with all scripted campaigns and links for them, please look at it.

As for CloD's AI there is possibility to edit it's skills and greatly reduce this unrealistic barrel rolls/flips but fighting in CloD you still have to make a lot of effort and exercise (and be lucky) to shoot anything, not like in GB where on hardest realism settings I can shoot 6 enemy fighters and still have ammo left in Bf109E ;-) .

[kraut1]

2 hours ago, jokash said:

Yes i was also thinking of smaller groups,3 to 9 aircraft,more for some specific missions where the context requires it,but not a bomber campaign centered around big bomber formations for the Luftwaffe missions (or Pe2 since we don't have any scripted campaign for it aswell).

Can i have the link for it?

Might even have a look at ILCoD (one thing i saw that i really didn't like was that the enemy AI knew when the crosshair was on it and it went into a 90 degree bank every time the crosshair was on it...even though that doesn't have a relation to bomber gameplay).

If you are interested to try out bomber campaigns you can test EMG by Vander as a mission generator.
And it is absolutely not required to create all campaign missions before you start to fly.

You need only the campaign folder, 2 more or less standard settings files

 info.locale=eng.txt (just some general description required)
and 
info.txt (I define there only the number of missions, and this can be changed later)

And maybe a campaign picture (optional)

Just an example:
If you want to fly an Odessa 1941 Ju88 campaign:

download / install EMG by Vander:

As a general rule I suggest to name all campaign missions for sorting with YYYY-MM-DD-[theatre of war, plane type, unit] but not too long, otherwise issues with video tracks.

select a front:

You have a huge variety of mission types for the Ju88:

Create the first mission and install if you want a small group to avoid issues with not successful mission objectives
0-immediately-mis-success.zip

Example for a campaign folder with one mission, ready to fly:
Eastern Front KG51 Ju88 Campaign.zip

@Arrow_1974 IL-2 Campaign Tracker and service Record for promotions medals, logbook

 

Edited May 5 by kraut1

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, mrtomek said:

(1xsc500 for ar234 is definitely not enough for such a plane)

That was the standard bomb load for Ar 234 missions. 🙂 The records from KG 76's time with the plane are quite thorough and make note of the bomb load for just about every mission they flew with it - and pretty much every time they flew with the one SC 500 bomb. Carrying bombs on the wings just increased the drag and the opportunity for enemy fighter interception. 

[mrtomek]

Ju-88 without front MG, ideal for admiring the views on long and dull routes to target...

 

[jokash]

Tnx @kraut1,il give the generator a go,even though again is not a human made campaign.I have taken a look at the editor, but obviously i have zero knowledge in it.If i ever learn to use it,will try to create some mini 4-5 mission bomber campaign, hopefully based on something interesting and historical.

Edited May 5 by jokash

[sandmarken]

8 hours ago, jokash said:

Tnx @kraut1,il give the generator a go,even though again is not a human made campaign.I have taken a look at the editor, but obviously i have zero knowledge in it.If i ever learn to use it,will try to create some mini 4-5 mission bomber campaign, hopefully based on something interesting and historical.

Do not give up on the editor. Its really not that hard to use! 

[Jaegermeister]

15 hours ago, jokash said:

Tnx @kraut1,il give the generator a go,even though again is not a human made campaign.I have taken a look at the editor, but obviously i have zero knowledge in it.If i ever learn to use it,will try to create some mini 4-5 mission bomber campaign, hopefully based on something interesting and historical.

You are better off in the long run learning how to use the Mission Editor. If you start small, with figuring out how the logic works to make a single flight take off, fly around and land, everything else just grows off of that. You can look at other people’s work to get the idea. The ones here who post user made campaigns usually work in a similar fashion, so it is easier to figure out in the editor.

Using the EMG to generate missions could be called a scripted campaign, because it is a series of consecutive missions linked together, but there are many types of missions and interesting scenarios that can not be produced that way. Reenacting historical events usually requires hand placing the planes and objects.

The best place to start is by downloading JimTMs Mission Editor manual.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AfDCHXIJKeMURMK8-LBHCmARMAUoEp5M/view?usp=sharing

 

[jokash]

Tnx,i downloaded the manual.I used to make missions in Starcraft and AoE2 for my friend, so i know concepts like triggers and such.I opened one of the missions from "Fire and Ice campaigns to see how it works,but most of campaings i cant open with editor.Anyways...summer is coming,and so is tourist season and a lot more work for me now,so maybe i will get more into it once fall arrives.We'll see.

[Jaegermeister]

Open up one of @sandmarken’s campaigns and take a look. I have tested some of his work and it is well organized and neat, which makes it easy to understand. Some people link the logic like a spiderweb and it is difficult to sort out what is what.

Once you start working with the ME, I can send you some groups to place in the missions that make duplicating work easier. Just post in the mission builder forum and lots of people will help out.

[sandmarken]

3 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

Open up one of @sandmarken’s campaigns and take a look. I have tested some of his work and it is well organized and neat, which makes it easy to understand. Some people link the logic like a spiderweb and it is difficult to sort out what is what.

Once you start working with the ME, I can send you some groups to place in the missions that make duplicating work easier. Just post in the mission builder forum and lots of people will help out.

Open and look at whatever work I have done if it is of any help. I also have a pretty huge library of assets now. Some of the new campaigns come without the mission.file, so tell me if I need to send the original folders and I will! 🙂

[jokash]

1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

Once you start working with the ME, I can send you some groups to place in the missions that make duplicating work easier. Just post in the mission builder forum and lots of people will help out.

Groups? You mean unit groups?

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, jokash said:

Groups? You mean unit groups?

Yes, once you put together a set of logic, like for instance a flight of fighters taking off from a runway, with waypoints and attack commands, you can save it as a group. Or maybe an enemy AAA gun with spawning logic, etc.

Once you have a bunch of those saved, its basically copy and paste.

You link them together with check zones or other triggers and that's about it. Adding scenery, front lines, ground battles and whatnot takes most of the time. There was a Groups sharing thread in the old forum under the mission builder section. I don't know if the links still work, but they probably do.

 

Edited May 6 by Jaegermeister

[kraut1]

Hi,

I am one of the impatient fighter pilots who normally never fly bomber careers / campaigns.
But I have read some 35 years ago the book by P.W.Stahl about his KG30 Ju88 missions and so I know that in many situations the Ju88 pilots acted as real individualists, not only strictly flying in formation.

So I have restarted the Template of the KG51 campaign with focus on real short range tactical combat missions beginning in the early stages of the Siege of Odessa.
It will be for me something like a test campaign to learn which type of Ju88 missions I like and which maybe not.

But all missions will have the focus on short flight time of maximum 25...45minutes without time acceleration for a full mission from take off to landing.

I have just flown the first mission and it was interesting for me.

All missions will be with installed warnings by gunners / wingmen and ground observer plane sightings...

Campaign download status 1 missions:

Eastern Front KG51 Ju88 Campaign status 01 missions.zip

Please install the Mod with JSGME for the Romanian Hurricane and Romanian tank / truck skins skins:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/m6c9wif63bchs8k/Odessa-1941-Mod-v1.zip/file

 

Edited May 16 by kraut1

[jokash]

Will definitely try ASAP...maybe even later today.I have flown very little of Ju88A4 (but Ju88C "Tank Busters" was one of my favorites).