Odessa and Leningrad Module

[BlackSix]

55 minutes ago, sandmarken said:

One plane i found no source for being used around Odessa was the LaGG-3. I first found it weird because why woud it be developed then, but i remembed that we also get Leningrad and it was probably used there 😁

The nearest LaGG-3 regiment (247th IAP) was fighting in the Crimea at that time, and at least one of its combat missions to the Odessa region is known.

[AndreiTomescu]

13 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

I believe Hurricanes were sent to the front towards the end of the Siege,

the Hurricanes (esc 53) were moved from Mamaia (near Constanta) to Buzau airfield on 21.06.1041 to supplement the available fighters for the liberation of Bassarabia. They returned to Mamaia from Salz on 20.10.1941

Here youv have a short but detailed story of its exploits. The source is quite to be trusted, they are the association on retired proffesional armyman.

https://www.ligamilitarilor.ro/istorie-militara/escadrila-53-vanatoare-mamaia-in-timpul-celui-de-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-elemente-cronologice/

couldn't paste the link translated, please do it from the upper right tab. sorry.

[Jaegermeister]

6 hours ago, sandmarken said:

I was sure i had seen something about the romanian 109s fighting yak-1s. 

There is, but it is very similar to the episode listed above by @86Cheese regarding the Yak 3. Both of the books "Romanian Aces of World War 2" and "Rumanian Air Force, The Prime Decade, 1938-1947", written by Denes Bernad describe the incident on August 21st, 1941 where the commanding officer of Grupul 7, Alexandru Popisteanu as being a dogfight against Sturmovik bombers and Yak-1 fighters at high level, which bounced the Romanians fighters from above. All other sources describe this event as being an encounter with "Ratas" and that term undoubtedly included the I-153s also in use at the time.

The first incident involving Yak-1s I have found is when the 32nd Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Black Sea Fleet sent Kapitan Ivan Lyubmiov from 5 Eskadrilya with a group of Yak 1 fighters to provide cover for Kapitan Aleksey Gubriy and his IL-2 Sturmoviks from 46 Assault Aviation Division at Odessa on October 1st, 1941. They were attached to 69 IAP and operated from the same airfields. More were sent in to replace the I-16 losses until the evacuation and they were all under the command of 69 IAP at the time as far as I can see. The few remaining Bf 109 E-3/4s had already been withdrawn by this time.

I believe this event will be represented in an upcoming Scenario Mission before too much longer.

 

Edited December 9 by Jaegermeister
Added date

[Jaegermeister]

4 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

the Hurricanes (esc 53) were moved from Mamaia (near Constanta) to Buzau airfield on 21.06.1041 to supplement the available fighters for the liberation of Bassarabia. They returned to Mamaia from Salz on 20.10.1941

Here youv have a short but detailed story of its exploits. The source is quite to be trusted, they are the association on retired proffesional armyman.

https://www.ligamilitarilor.ro/istorie-militara/escadrila-53-vanatoare-mamaia-in-timpul-celui-de-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-elemente-cronologice/

couldn't paste the link translated, please do it from the upper right tab. sorry.

 

Here is the relevent part, translated to English. Thanks for the link.

Spoiler

August 29 – September 5, 1941. Two or three missions daily, but no enemy was encountered. During this period, Squadron 53 was moved to the Saltz airfield near Odessa. On August 31, Captain Ioan Roşescu arrived as a pilot in the squadron.
.
September 6, 1941. A patrol of Squadron 53 fights against six Soviet fighter planes. Trainee Adjutant Camenceanu shot down one.
.
September 7, 1941. Two missions; the Soviet planes encountered refused to fight. The method of combat is changed.
.
September 8, 1941. From the Operations Journal of the 1st Fighter Flotilla: "Squadron 53. It seems that the enemy has caught on to our way of working. Despite all the alarms that are given, the enemy is not caught. The method of combat is changed. They patrol the sector, then turn as if they were returning to the airfield, after which, at the edge of the earth, they return to the sector. Thus, at 18:00, the Hurricane patrol, which was patrolling the sector, applies this method and captures eight Rata planes at Freudental. The fight is engaged and Chief Adjutant Rădulescu Andrei shoots down a Rata plane, and Adjutant Popescu Constantin shoots down a certain and a probable Rata plane".
.
September 9-11, 1941. Missions in the Odessa area, without air combat. The only loss of the campaign On 12 September 1941, 53 Squadron recorded its only loss of the campaign. During a battle near Odessa, Captain Ioan Roşescu shot down two bombers but, in turn, crashed with his plane in flames. The number of victories of 53 Squadron reached 51 Soviet aircraft shot down on this day.
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13 – 14 September 1941. Missions to Odessa, without encountering the enemy.
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15 September 1941. A patrol of Hurricanes took off from Saltz airfield and landed at Tighina airfield. At 13:05 it took off to accompany Marshal Ion Antonescu's three-engine plane, which was heading to Nikolaev, where the funeral of General Eugen von Schobert, commander of the German 11th Army, was taking place (he had died on 12 September, after his plane had landed on a minefield). Around 15:00, during the funeral procession, the Hurricane patrol flew over the funeral cortege. At 17:05, the patrol took off to accompany Marshal Antonescu's plane on its return, then returned to Saltz.
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16 – 17 September 1941. Air battles with Soviet aviation take place in Odessa. No victories are achieved. 52 victories, the last air battle.
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18 September 1941. In one of the three missions of the day, an air battle with Soviet aviation took place. Four Hurricane aircraft faced about 15 Soviet Rata fighters. Chief Warrant Officer Rădulescu shot down an enemy aircraft. It was the last air battle of Squadron 53 in this campaign. The number of aerial victories was 52 aircraft, with only one loss in combat.
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September 19 – October 19, 1941. Flights in the Odessa region, without any special actions.
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October 20, 1941. Squadron 53 leaves the Saltz airfield and returns to Mamaia, in the defense of Dobrogea. It had more than a third of the certain victories obtained by the six squadrons of the 1st Fighter Flotilla (49 out of 143).

 

Edited December 9 by Jaegermeister

[sandmarken]

2 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

There is, but it is very similar to the episode listed above by @86Cheese regarding the Yak 3. Both of the books "Romanian Aces of World War 2 and Rumanian Air Force, The Prime Decade, 1938-1947, written by Denes Bernad describe the incident on August 21st, 1941 where the commanding officer of Grupul 7, Alexandru Popisteanu as being a dogfight against Sturmovik bombers and Yak-1 fighters at high level, which bounced the Romanians fighters from above. All other sources describe this event as being an encounter with "Ratas" and that term undoubtedly included the I-153s also in use at the time.

Yes this is the story i was thinking about! Interesting that this also seems to be a false tale. 

 

3 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

Here youv have a short but detailed story of its exploits. The source is quite to be trusted, they are the association on retired proffesional armyman.

https://www.ligamilitarilor.ro/istorie-militara/escadrila-53-vanatoare-mamaia-in-timpul-celui-de-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-elemente-cronologice/

No doubt the Hurricanes was very active during the first days of barbarossa! 

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, sandmarken said:

No doubt the Hurricanes was very active during the first days of barbarossa! 

If I understand that correctly, romania had twelve in total ?

https://www.destinationsjourney.com/historical-military-photographs/hawker-hurricane-in-romanian-service/

[sandmarken]

3 minutes ago, sevenless said:

If I understand that correctly, romania had twelve in total ?

https://www.destinationsjourney.com/historical-military-photographs/hawker-hurricane-in-romanian-service/

Yes, and a couple more came as they were captured in Yugoslavia, I think. They scored around 50 victories to no loss during the first weeks of battle before running out of spare parts.

 

I have made a short campaign following the first days of combat. Check it out in the campaign section if you are interested.😁

[AndreiTomescu]

39 minutes ago, sandmarken said:

Yes this is the story i was thinking about! Interesting that this also seems to be a false tale. 

it's not false..... I can come with several different sources for it, including several witness journals from guys who took part in the clash.

There was a fight, there were many Ratas, in 2 waves, by romanian account, and they were escorting some low level attack planes. Also Popisteanu got himself shot down and killed. That's what they all have in common in their recollection. the exact truth, only God above knows. I can come with a detailed description of the fight, if wanted for a mission.

Now, if there were Yak-1, that would have sounded better for the romanians, right? Also they couldn't have mistaken Rata for Yak, what the.....:) 🤣😂

 

also the fight took place at low altitude, as the ro Bf-109s tried engaged the ground pounders, and the Ratas came quite skillfully from above. Even above the protection cell, because the ro doctrine dictated that they always kept a protection cell higher and then switched places.

Regarding Mr Denes Bernad (Romanian by birth, Maghiar ethnic, from Transilvania) books, despite them being nicely written, and despite he speaks fluently romanian language (studied at Brasov), i've found in them many informations that were misleading, to say so, and obviously taken from third parties/books, and in contradiction with first hand accounts (journals,accounts, memoires) that i find more credible and accurate (if you take into account the personal view of the narrator)

[sevenless]

7 minutes ago, sandmarken said:

I have made a short campaign following the first days of combat. Check it out in the campaign section if you are interested.😁

Downloaded! Thanks for that!

Hurricane Diaries (Hurricane MK II) - Scripted Campaigns - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum

[AndreiTomescu]

7 minutes ago, sandmarken said:

Yes, and a couple more came as they were captured in Yugoslavia, I think. They scored around 50 victories to no loss during the first weeks of battle before running out of spare parts.

 

I have made a short campaign following the first days of combat. Check it out in the campaign section if you are interested.😁

@sevenless: 16 in total, 12 bought and delivered from UK before the war from a batch of 50+. 4 BOUGHT from Germany from those captured in Yugoslavia, along with spare parts. 12 were forming 53 squadron, rest swaped as mentenance was needed.

The Hurri was the most beloved aircraft for the ro pilots, pls read Sandmarken's campaign description. Also try that campaign, if you please, it's very good. 

maybe i'm biased because it's my favourite bird, also......sorry for that....i felt in love with her when i first saw one at the RAF museum, London, and read all those wonderfull tales from the Battle of Britain.

that was about 15 yrs ago....

[Jaegermeister]

14 minutes ago, AndreiTomescu said:

it's not false..... I can come with several different sources for it, including several witness journals from guys who took part in the clash.

There was a fight, there were many Ratas, in 2 waves, by romanian account, and they were escorting some low level attack planes. Also Popisteanu got himself shot down and killed. That's what they all have in common in their recollection. the exact truth, only God above knows. I can come with a detailed description of the fight, if wanted for a mission.

Now, if there were Yak-1, that would have sounded better for the romanians, right? Also they couldn't have mistaken Rata for Yak, what the.....:) 🤣😂

also the fight took place at low altitude, as the ro Bf-109s tried engaged the ground pounders, and the Ratas came quite skillfully from above. Even above the protection cell, because the ro doctrine dictated that they always kept a protection cell higher and then switched places.

Regarding Mr Denes Bernad (Romanian by birth, Maghiar ethnic, from Transilvania) books, despite them being nicely written, and despite he speaks fluently romanian language (studied at Brasov), i've found in them many informations that were misleading, to say so, and obviously taken from third parties/books, and in contradiction with first hand accounts (journals,accounts, memoires) that i find more credible and accurate (if you take into account the personal view of the narrator)

 

I was not suggesting that the story was false, only that the author was mistaken in how he relayed the aircraft involved. If you have any other sources that confirm it was Yaks in addition to the Ratas, I would be interested to know, because yes.... it will be part of a Scripted Campaign that I am almost finished with. I have already completed that mission and I could easily adjust it if I can confirm there were Yaks involved. Unfortunately I have not found any units flying those planes assigned to that area before October. @BlackSix may know better. The first half has already been sent for testing and the second half of the campaign is almost complete. It's interesting that we just discussed the Hurricanes involved from Flotilla 1, because I am working on that exact time period right now when they were all transferred to Selz (Salz).

[AndreiTomescu]

2 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

was not suggesting that the story was false, only that the author was mistaken in how he relayed the aircraft involved.

Yes, i know. 

I was not suggesting that you were suggesting 😂, I was just clinging onto that that wwas mentioned in order to.....suggest 😄 elegant, without being to harsh, just what you're saying: that he said it wrong. And not only those facts.

There is no mention in ro docs, none, about Yak s , only Mig 3.

But concerning the soviet airforce, I truly think @BlackSix is the best and true expert we have here.

It's difficult to assess  even the aprox facts from 1 source. I usually believe something if I have 2-3 sources, and books written from books does not count

Edited December 9 by AndreiTomescu

[kraut1]

3 hours ago, sandmarken said:

Yes, and a couple more came as they were captured in Yugoslavia, I think. They scored around 50 victories to no loss during the first weeks of battle before running out of spare parts.

 

I have made a short campaign following the first days of combat. Check it out in the campaign section if you are interested.😁

 

3 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

@sevenless: 16 in total, 12 bought and delivered from UK before the war from a batch of 50+. 4 BOUGHT from Germany from those captured in Yugoslavia, along with spare parts. 12 were forming 53 squadron, rest swaped as mentenance was needed.

The Hurri was the most beloved aircraft for the ro pilots, pls read Sandmarken's campaign description. Also try that campaign, if you please, it's very good. 

maybe i'm biased because it's my favourite bird, also......sorry for that....i felt in love with her when i first saw one at the RAF museum, London, and read all those wonderfull tales from the Battle of Britain.

that was about 15 yrs ago....

 

3 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

I was not suggesting that the story was false, only that the author was mistaken in how he relayed the aircraft involved. If you have any other sources that confirm it was Yaks in addition to the Ratas, I would be interested to know, because yes.... it will be part of a Scripted Campaign that I am almost finished with. I have already completed that mission and I could easily adjust it if I can confirm there were Yaks involved. Unfortunately I have not found any units flying those planes assigned to that area before October. @BlackSix may know better. The first half has already been sent for testing and the second half of the campaign is almost complete. It's interesting that we just discussed the Hurricanes involved from Flotilla 1, because I am working on that exact time period right now when they were all transferred to Selz (Salz).

Interesting discussion!
My Luftwaffe 40-45 campaign will soon be continued in 41 Odessa.
I know already some German fighter units that took part in the advance to Odessa.
But I suppose that they were present in the Odessa map area only until ca. 12th...19th August.

Does anybody know if German fighter units were active during the siege of Odessa between mid August to mid October 41?
Or were they all allready more in the east (Crimea, ...)?

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

 

 

Interesting discussion!
My Luftwaffe 40-45 campaign will soon be continued in 41 Odessa.
I know already some German fighter units that took part in the advance to Odessa.
But I suppose that they were present in the Odessa map area only until ca. 12th...19th August.

Does anybody know if German fighter units were active during the siege of Odessa between mid August to mid October 41?
Or were they all allready more in the east (Crimea, ...)?

Yes, JG 77, Lehrgeschwader 2, STG 77 and Various bomber groups were all active over Odessa. They mostly pulled out before the end of the campaign and moved further north and west when the Romanians appeared to have it under control. I don't have exact dates since I have been more focused on the Romanian units recently.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

Does anybody know if German fighter units were active during the siege of Odessa between mid August to mid October 41?
Or were they all allready more in the east (Crimea, ...)?

Concerning fighters:

Stab./JG 52 was in the area until the end of the campaign.

III./JG 52 departed on August 1

Stab./JG 77 was in the area until after the end of the campaign

II./JG 77 departed the area on August 28

III./JG 77 departed the area on August 29

I./LG 2 was in the area until at least October 12

Ju 87s: the whole of StG 77 was there through to the end of the campaign

Concerning bombers:

II./KG 4 departed the area on July 5 (a torpedo and mining unit)

6./KG 26 was in the area until after the end of the campaign (a torpedo and mining unit)

Stab., I., and II./KG 27 was there until after the end of the campaign. III. Gruppe departed the area on August 15

1./KG 28, another torpedo/mine unit, was there throughout the campaign

Stab., I., and III./KG 51 was there throughout the campaign. II. Gruppe departed for Austria on September 8

[Avimimus]

I can see that Torpedoes would be too much to ask - but that list kind-of makes me want mines added as a loadout option...

[kraut1]

9 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

Yes, JG 77, Lehrgeschwader 2, STG 77 and Various bomber groups were all active over Odessa. They mostly pulled out before the end of the campaign and moved further north and west when the Romanians appeared to have it under control. I don't have exact dates since I have been more focused on the Romanian units recently.

 

9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Concerning fighters:

Stab./JG 52 was in the area until the end of the campaign.

III./JG 52 departed on August 1

Stab./JG 77 was in the area until after the end of the campaign

II./JG 77 departed the area on August 28

III./JG 77 departed the area on August 29

I./LG 2 was in the area until at least October 12

Great! Thanks very much for your answers!🙂

And after Siege of Odessa I will continue with German advance on the Kerch Peninsula in November and the Soviet Counter Attack (amphibious landing) in late December...
I am already working on the map mod Feodosia / Eastern Crimea (ca 50%):

Edited December 10 by kraut1

[BlackSix]

Guys, unfortunately I don't have time to reread the entire discussion, please formulate clear questions and I'll answer you.

[kraut1]

1 minute ago, BlackSix said:

Guys, unfortunately I don't have time to reread the entire discussion, please formulate clear questions and I'll answer you.

Thanks for your reply!
From my side the question was:

Does anybody know if German fighter units were active during the siege of Odessa between mid August to mid October 41?

And I have received this answer:

 

[BlackSix]

29 minutes ago, kraut1 said:

Thanks for your reply!
From my side the question was:

Does anybody know if German fighter units were active during the siege of Odessa between mid August to mid October 41?

And I have received this answer

Yes, Luke wrote the histories of these units and he has all the most up-to-date data.

[AndreiTomescu]

2 hours ago, BlackSix said:

please formulate clear questions and I'll answer you

21.08.1941, Odessa/Tiraspol area, could have been present Yak-1 fighters? 

[BlackSix]

11 minutes ago, AndreiTomescu said:

21.08.1941, Odessa/Tiraspol area, could have been present Yak-1 fighters? 

Russian sources describe it this way:

Spoiler

Вечером уже при отражении налета 5 румынских бомбардировщиков Не-111Н-3 на аэродром ГВФ в Одессе звено 3 И-16 старшего политрука Феодосия Дубковского было перехвачено и атаковано группой сопровождающих бомберы румынских Bf-109E-3. Во время воздушного боя между железнодорожными станциями Выгода и Палиево был сбит один «Мессершмитт». По всей вероятности, это был Bf-109E-3 № 44 из Esk.56 Van., сбитый в районе Мариенталя (Васильевки). Причем пилотом «мессера» был не кто нибудь, а сам командир 7-й истребительной авиагруппы локотенант-коммандор Александру Попистяну, который погиб. В свою очередь, румынские летчики доложили, что они якобы атаковали «группу Ил-2», которых сопровождали «новые истребители типа Як-1» (и тех и других на тот момент в Одессе просто еще не было) и будто бы «сбили» 6 Яков!

That evening, while repelling a raid by five Romanian He-111H-3 bombers on the Civil Air Fleet airfield in Odessa, Senior Political Instructor Feodosiy Dubkovsky's 3rd I-16 flight was intercepted and attacked by a group of Romanian Bf-109E-3s escorting the bombers. During the air battle between the Vygoda and Paliyevo railway stations, one Messerschmitt was shot down. In all likelihood, it was Bf-109E-3 No. 44 of Esk.56 Van., shot down near Marienthal (Vasil'evka). The pilot of the Messerschmitt was none other than the commander of the 7th Fighter Air Group, Lieutenant Commander Alexandru Popistyanu, who was killed. In turn, the Romanian pilots reported that they allegedly attacked a “group of Il-2s,” which were accompanied by “new Yak-1 fighters” (both of which simply did not exist in Odessa at that time) and allegedly “shot down” 6 Yaks!

On August 17, the 9th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Naval Air Force, which had been flying the Yak-1 since the beginning of the war, was evacuated to Crimea. And on the 22nd, the 5th Squadron of the 32nd Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Naval Air Force arrived in Odessa with Yak-1s. It turns out that the Yak-1 couldn't have been there on August 21.

[Jaegermeister]

On 12/8/2025 at 4:12 PM, Kubert said:

Probably just Yak-1s. Yak-1b has bubble canopy. 

I've read Pokryshkyn's book. He described fighting on MiG-3 since first days of the war in Odessa region. 55.IAP from airfield Majaki.

After looking at other sources, there were more Mig-3s in the Odessa conflict than I previously thought.  Like you said, the 55th Fighter Aviation Regiment was very active in the area. I am still translating the Russian history I was given so I will know more later.

[sandmarken]

6 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

After looking at other sources, there were more Mig-3s in the Odessa conflict than I previously thought.  Like you said, the 55th Fighter Aviation Regiment was very active in the area. I am still translating the Russian history I was given so I will know more later.

Was it the Mig-3 we have in the game, or maybe the one at odessa woud be the early one without wing slats? 

[BlackSix]

There were MiG-1s and MiG-3s of the early series but we'll use MiG-3 from the BoM.