Planes dart in and out of screen.

[daiphan]

Hi all,

I downloaded ROF, IL2 and FC, I use the old 18 year old Saitek joy stick. For the life of me I simply cannot line up anyone in my sight from behind. The planes just dart in and out of the screen so fast that I have no time to react. And it took a long time for me to reverse the turn so I could not get anyone in sight at all. Newbie typical issue or controller issue? Thanks Dai 

Edited March 24 by daiphan

[Gutholz]

Hi

Hard to say what is going on without some video or recording.

What is the excact name of your joystick?

In general aircrafts move and turn very fast, even more so in dogfights, and it is normal that they will only stay in your crosshairs for 1-2 seconds or less.

That is a typical problem for everyone.

It depends on the situation and of course with skill/experience it gets easier.

It is very important is to keep track of targets by following them with your view.

For example look at these videos here:

Look at the scene from 1min50 onwards. He spots an enemy going right to left over the road/bridge. Then he loops behind it.

Notice how he moves his view to track the enemy. He only looks straight ahead when shooting, otherwise he is always looking through the side windows, to the back, or through the roof of the canopy. When the target is in the crosshair it is not by suprise because he had been tracking it the whole time.

If you only look straight ahead then airplanes will quickly swoosh through your screen. But if you follow them with your view then you can track them much longer.

Even if the target is not in your crosshair it is important to keep sight on it so you can manoeuvre accordingly.

 

What are you using to look around, if anything?

VR headsets or trackIR are popular. But you can also use the mouse or keyboard (numpad keys) or cooliehat/button of joystick.

 

For start it is good practice to begin with easy targets or even just basic flight moves.

-Find a river and follow it

-Find a straight river/road/railway and do 180° turns, use the road to check you are lined up after the 180° turn.

On server "Combatbox Training" (not the normal "Combatbox by Redflight") try the Airtarget area or what it is called. There will be random AI planes that fly in straight lines without shooting back.

Or use Quickmission and shot down some transport planes.

Or try to fly behind some friendly planes and follow their course.

 

 

 

[daiphan]

Greetings,

I use the old Saitek 45 controller which is about 18 years old. When I put the plane is auto-pilot it flies in a way that my joystick cannot duplicate (quick reverse turns). I wonder if the joystick needs to be calibrated (but how) or get a newer unit? I use collie hat to look for planes. Dai 

 

[Gutholz]

This one?

https://www.amazon.nl/-/en/Joystick-X45-Flight-System-Saitek/dp/B00005TOTG

Without having used it, it looks decent enough.

You can check the calibration in Windows by going to USB Game Controller settings. There is a dialog where it shows the states of buttons and position of all axis.

If you can reach both end positions on every axis and there is not random jittering/drift then it is okay.

You can also check ingame:  Tilt the view down until you see the stick and pedals. Then move the joysticks, the ingame controlls should move in the same way.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

10 hours ago, daiphan said:

When I put the plane is auto-pilot it flies in a way that my joystick cannot duplicate (quick reverse turns).

In what way can't your joystick duplicate those turns? What happens exactly?

Also, which plane are you flying?

[JollyJack]

Must be a new UFO? That quick reverse issue i remember from trains some years back .. 

[AndreiTomescu]

Dai, man, post a,short video to see how it goes. From what I guess your target "shooting" out of screen could be some major stuttering. Like the GPU can't display the image fluid, so now you see the target in one place and the next frame displayed is actually several frames apart, and it moved quite afar. Out of visible area, maybe. I'm taking into account your integrated graphics (not dedicated gpu) that you've mentioned in another post.

[daiphan]

7 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

In what way can't your joystick duplicate those turns? What happens exactly?

Also, which plane are you flying?

When I move the stick left or right, the plane turns much slower than on Autopilot. AP turns on a dime. Dai 

2 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

Dai, man, post a,short video to see how it goes. From what I guess your target "shooting" out of screen could be some major stuttering. Like the GPU can't display the image fluid, so now you see the target in one place and the next frame displayed is actually several frames apart, and it moved quite afar. Out of visible area, maybe. I'm taking into account your integrated graphics (not dedicated gpu) that you've mentioned in another post.

I play at 1280X720 and the motion is pretty smooth. I make sure compression is not on but I just cannot get behind anyone. The turn is too slow. Dai 

2 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

Dai, man, post a,short video to see how it goes. From what I guess your target "shooting" out of screen could be some major stuttering. Like the GPU can't display the image fluid, so now you see the target in one place and the next frame displayed is actually several frames apart, and it moved quite afar. Out of visible area, maybe. I'm taking into account your integrated graphics (not dedicated gpu) that you've mentioned in another post.

How do I do that? Sorry for being so newbie. Dai 

[Gutholz]

1 hour ago, daiphan said:

When I move the stick left or right, the plane turns much slower than on Autopilot. AP turns on a dime. Dai 

Are you trying to fly turns by using the twist-axis of the joystick?

The usual way is to roll the plane a bit to the side (wing inside the turn goes turn, outside wing goes up) and then pull back on the stick. It is a basic process but hard to master.

I agree, record a video and upload on youtube. (recording the screen with phone should be okay)

[Aapje]

I would suggest going into the key bindings and opening up the curve editor, at least for the roll. Then you can move the joystick and see what signals it actually sends to the game. See this video:

 

If you rapidly move the joystick and it does not rapidly move to the extreme, then the joystick is the issue. You can then try to increase the sensitivity, although this may make it very hard to aim.

These old/crappy joysticks typically generate signals even if you are not moving the stick, and you can set a dead zone to counter this. You can also set a curve, where the sensitivity is lower when you move the stick a little, but more if you move the stick a lot. This can also help with allowing both for aiming and for fast movement. The crappier the stick, the more of these kinds of interventions are typically needed to make them somewhat usable.

However, I would not be surprised if your 18-year old joystick has simply degraded and it is very old tech in any case. Replacing it with either a VKB Gladiator + STECS or Virpil CDT-AEROMAX-R + CDT-VMAX would bring you up to date with modern tech at a the lowest price point where you get the actually good stuff.

[daiphan]

38 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I would suggest going into the key bindings and opening up the curve editor, at least for the roll. Then you can move the joystick and see what signals it actually sends to the game. See this video:

 

If you rapidly move the joystick and it does not rapidly move to the extreme, then the joystick is the issue. You can then try to increase the sensitivity, although this may make it very hard to aim.

These old/crappy joysticks typically generate signals even if you are not moving the stick, and you can set a dead zone to counter this. You can also set a curve, where the sensitivity is lower when you move the stick a little, but more if you move the stick a lot. This can also help with allowing both for aiming and for fast movement. The crappier the stick, the more of these kinds of interventions are typically needed to make them somewhat usable.

However, I would not be surprised if your 18-year old joystick has simply degraded and it is very old tech in any case. Replacing it with either a VKB Gladiator + STECS or Virpil CDT-AEROMAX-R + CDT-VMAX would bring you up to date with modern tech at a the lowest price point where you get the actually good stuff.

How about getting the Turtle Beach Velocity One joystick? Dai 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

8 hours ago, daiphan said:

How about getting the Turtle Beach Velocity One joystick? Dai 

I do not recommend buying any joystick until you've checked the keybindings/curves, as in the video Aapje posted. It might just as well be a key binding issue, in which case buying a new joystick would leave you with the exact same problem.

Also check the joystick calibration settings in Windows: https://www.apollomaniacs.com/knowhow_windows11_gamecontroller_en.htm

Only if the in-game curves or the joystick calibration in Windows show strange behaviour (jittering, offset, dead zones etc) which you can't correct in the Windows settings, I'd advise you to buy a new stick. If it gets to that point, the joystick you posted seems like a decent one, if the reviews are to be trusted. It's also not too expensive, which I think is extremely important until you know what you're looking for in a stick.

[Aapje]

13 hours ago, daiphan said:

How about getting the Turtle Beach Velocity One joystick? Dai 

No, old technology packaged in a way that looks good, but is not actually good and not reliable. Very much overpriced for what it is, which is unfortunately the case for pretty much all of the cheaper stuff and even pretty much all of the not-so-cheap stuff from the old brands.

Let me tell you a little story:

Once upon a time, flight sims became much less popular, and there was much less of a market for flight sim hardware. In response, all the manufacturers that you remember from the olden days either quit making flight sim hardware, or they put in minimum effort and fired most of the people with expertise. However, flight simming remained popular in Eastern Europe (which is why DCS and IL-2, that survived through the dark ages of flight simming, have their origins there). So enthusiasts from these regions made new hardware companies that did innovate and that did keep high production standards.

During Covid, the lack of real travel coupled with the well-timed release of MSFS 2020 causes a big resurgence of flight simming. Some of the companies of the past have tried to make new hardware, but all the expertise they lost means that they are simply not able to do a good enough job (yet). Also, we now see that Chinese companies are taking advantage of this opportunity, although they have a tendency to do bad customer support, poor quality control and such.

The two companies that I advised, are the main of these Eastern European companies that kept innovating and that make very good products for a decent price. Their main weaknesses are marketing, producing in sufficient quantity and setting up a distribution network, so you won't find them in the big stores, but have to order from them online directly. You may also suffer from long delivery times. However, once you have their stuff, you will discover that the quality is great and the support is generally good too.

The Chinese companies (WinCTRL, Moza) are more of a gamble, due to their quality control issues, so I'm wary about recommending them. But they do actually properly design their hardware.

[Aapje]

4 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I do not recommend buying any joystick until you've checked the keybindings/curves, as in the video Aapje posted. It might just as well be a key binding issue, in which case buying a new joystick would leave you with the exact same problem.

Yes and no. I also recommend first checking what the actual cause is, if possible. If the joystick is malfunctioning, it should be visible by taking the steps I described.

However, if daiphan will keep playing flight sims, even if it is just now and then, I would definitely recommend getting a proper modern joystick and if he intends to play a lot, also a throttle.

It seems unlikely that a joystick that old is performing as well as when it was new and has a lot of life left in it. Even if it is not broken, the quality is almost certainly quite poor compared to a modern stick and there is definitely a lack of buttons. The controls that you use have a huge impact on the experience. When I upgraded my hardware, I went from constant irritation at how badly it performed, to constantly enjoying my controllers. At least for me, it had a big impact on the enjoyment of the game.

 

 

[daiphan]

Hello all.

After over 10 years hiatus I decided to get back into flight sims. I just bought this rig and please recommend a good stick and throttle set up. Thanks Dai 

Alienware Aurora Gaming Desktop Intel Core Ultra 9 285 2025 32GB Memory NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5070 12GB 2TB Storage Black DACT1250-9913BLK-PUS - Best Buy

 

Edited March 26 by daiphan

[AEthelraedUnraed]

34 minutes ago, Aapje said:

It seems unlikely that a joystick that old is performing as well as when it was new and has a lot of life left in it. Even if it is not broken, the quality is almost certainly quite poor compared to a modern stick and there is definitely a lack of buttons. The controls that you use have a huge impact on the experience. When I upgraded my hardware, I went from constant irritation at how badly it performed, to constantly enjoying my controllers. At least for me, it had a big impact on the enjoyment of the game.

I disagree, it depends a lot on how the joystick was stored in the meantime. If it was stored well, there's no reason its performance should be degraded.

Regarding the controls, you do have a point but this depends a lot on the usecase. Not everyone is equally bothered by mediocre hardware or a lack of buttons. As long as you're not bothered, there's no point in buying new gear.

29 minutes ago, daiphan said:

After over 10 years hiatus I decided to get back into flight sims. I just bought this rig and please recommend a good stick and throttle set up. Thanks Dai 

Everyone has their own preferences. I'd recommend to buy something relatively cheap to start with. Then as you get more in-game experience, you know what characteristics you're looking for in your gear and can buy a better one if needed.

Personally, I recommend the Thrustmaster T.16000M set. Cheap, easy to install, ergonomic grip, lots of buttons, and you can extend it with a throttle and foot pedals. I've been using mine for 6 years now and I'm still perfectly satisfied with it.

[daiphan]

15 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I disagree, it depends a lot on how the joystick was stored in the meantime. If it was stored well, there's no reason its performance should be degraded.

Regarding the controls, you do have a point but this depends a lot on the usecase. Not everyone is equally bothered by mediocre hardware or a lack of buttons. As long as you're not bothered, there's no point in buying new gear.

Everyone has their own preferences. I'd recommend to buy something relatively cheap to start with. Then as you get more in-game experience, you know what characteristics you're looking for in your gear and can buy a better one if needed.

Personally, I recommend the Thrustmaster T.16000M set. Cheap, easy to install, ergonomic grip, lots of buttons, and you can extend it with a throttle and foot pedals. I've been using mine for 6 years now and I'm still perfectly satisfied with it.

How about this cheaper set? I eventually will buy a very good set but I want to start out something cheaper but quality. Dai

Thrustmaster T Flight Hotas One Joystick for Xbox Series X|S, Xbox One, Windows Black 4460168 - Best Buy

 

19 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I disagree, it depends a lot on how the joystick was stored in the meantime. If it was stored well, there's no reason its performance should be degraded.

Regarding the controls, you do have a point but this depends a lot on the usecase. Not everyone is equally bothered by mediocre hardware or a lack of buttons. As long as you're not bothered, there's no point in buying new gear.

Everyone has their own preferences. I'd recommend to buy something relatively cheap to start with. Then as you get more in-game experience, you know what characteristics you're looking for in your gear and can buy a better one if needed.

Personally, I recommend the Thrustmaster T.16000M set. Cheap, easy to install, ergonomic grip, lots of buttons, and you can extend it with a throttle and foot pedals. I've been using mine for 6 years now and I'm still perfectly satisfied with it.

This set correct? Dai

 

[AndreiTomescu]

Aapje's story is very true.

From my own experience:

- a Chinese nice-looking poor quality lasts 3 months

- a cheaper Saitek, Logitech, or low level Thrustmaster anything between 6 and 12 month, but with degrading precision

- a low entry Virpil or VKB (these are the Russian companies hinted by Aapje, yes) or a high end Thrustmaster they have ALL METAL components inside. No plastic. My cheapest available virpil setup has 3k (3.000!) hours of use, and it was not necessary to even tighten the springs. It's sharp as new. Also i got spare springs and balls for it!

So, everybody does as sees fit, this is just my own experience.

I would like to add that for me, a high quality joystick ment a much better aim. 

Edited March 26 by AndreiTomescu

[AndreiTomescu]

P.S. pls, don't cut my....springs 😉 for saying those 2 Russian companies are the best. It's just my personal view, and backed up by many others all over the net. I don't discuss their origins (headquarters are China (VKB) and Lihuania (Virpil), by the way, just like other companies that make very good products that we enjoy so much are in Cyprus.... 😉 ) just their product's level of quality.

Edited March 26 by AndreiTomescu

[Leifr]

VKB aren't Russian, and they will say so themselves. They're based out of China, and the designers and folk who work for them are from the old Soviet states. Sorry, but it's a caveat VKB themselves often mention on their Discord when folk ask. 

 

[Dash,Polder]

Virpil has never been Russian, they're Belorussian in origin and the actual workers and factory is in Lithuania just across the border from where the original assembly building was located.  They moved when they expanded to a bigger dedicated factory. 

[AndreiTomescu]

4 hours ago, daiphan said:

I want to start out something cheaper but quality

the T16000M set mentioned by our esteemed elf colleague 🙂 might just fit into this category. I was disappointed by the Saitek/Logitek products that i've had back in the past. Too soon they've lost accuracy. The T16000M is however about 200 euros, at least in my country. at 350 euros you're entering another level (all metal inside).your new rig is awesome, and at 2.5K , nowadays, at a very good price. regarding HOTAS devices, there is a curve .  from a point upwards regarding the price, you spend much more for a modest improvement. From my POW, the durability is given by the components inside. like industrial grade aluminum and such. me, personally ,i am too poor to change devices regularly, and also my wife notices the change, not necessarily the price, so i prefer to go for stuff that's very reliable.

Also i am happy, really happy that you decided to (re)enter our small community of flight enthusiasts. New blood is key for the future survival. Pls note that the blokes here are quite willing to help, as much as possible.  of course he have (slightly) different opinions, but from this kind of debates, usually good ideas emerge. 

 

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, daiphan said:

I want to start out something cheaper but quality. Dai

There is cheaper, but not cheaper and quality, sorry. 

The throttle of the Thrustmaster T.16000M set is quite good with the quantity of buttons and the ergonomics. There is just one thing the throttle is poor at, which is throttling... I had one and tried modding it, but I could never get it to slide without severe stiction issues (that is when you can't make subtle movements, because the throttle is sticky, but when it does go, it goes fast). This is very inconvenient in IL-2, where there are thresholds between engine modes, and you want to get maximum performance for a certain engine mode.

The joystick is not very good.

If you want to go slow with the spending then my advice is to either get a VKB Gladiator Space Combat Edition or a Virpil CDT-AEROMAX-R with the throttle module (more expensive, but the quality goes up in proportion with the price increase). In both situations, you have a throttle slider on the joystick, which is not the most ergonomic, but at least you have the joy of having a properly working and reliable joystick. Then once you want to spend more, you can add a throttle. Unfortunately, there are no decent options for a throttle at a lower price point.

Edited March 26 by Aapje

[AndreiTomescu]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

Virpil CDT-AEROMAX-R

huh! this in new! awesome! wasn't on the market when i got my stick and base. seems like a great choice, since it's 200 excluding vat, and a stick plus base goes at about 350 excluding vat. and it has Z-axis for the stick included! that if you don't get rudders. on my setup that had to be added separately.  it's much less expensive and has the same all-metal base as the WarBRD base. wonder why? competition, maybe?

[Gutholz]

For the throttle also consider control axes for radiators, propeller pitch and aircrafts with two engines.

Eventually you might want more than just one slider. (Search for "throttle quadrant")

When choosing a joystick I suggest to focus on the stick itself and ignore the included extra throttles: They are usually only useful for one engine.

If you eventually upgrade to a dedicated throttle quadrant then the throttle that came with the joystick would be left over.

Most joysticks have at least one small slider anyway and for the start that is enough.